From owner-ibis Wed Sep 1 15:36:57 1999 Received: from web1404.mail.yahoo.com (web1404.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.168]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA16050 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19990901223038.14975.rocketmail@web1404.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [134.134.248.22] by web1404.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 01 Sep 1999 15:30:38 PDT Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:30:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Raymond Chen Reply-To: chen@sigrity.com Subject: RE: Paper on IBIS simulation algorithm To: "Ingraham, Andrew" Cc: ibis-users@eda.org, si-list@silab.eng.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Andy and Larry, We did some studies on IBIS simulation techniques and algorithms back to 1996, and we did publish a pretty detailed paper on that topic at 1996 ECTC conference. You can download that file from our web page at http://www.sigrity.com/support.htm, which is the 11th paper titled as "Extraction of Transient Behavioral Model of Digital I/O Buffers from IBIS". That paper pointed out how to implement a simulation algorithm to extract the transient behavior of ibis model from the static I-V curve and V-T curve so you can later simulate different load situations without knowing the transistor level details. Hope that will help. Raymond Chen --- "Ingraham, Andrew" wrote: > Larry Forsythe wrote: > > >I'm confused about how IBIS is used in actual > simulations. I haven't seen > >any articles about this (please indicate if there > are some). > > And you might not find any that go into much detail. > The actual algorithm > used by each simulator, especially as to how it > handles the V-T data, might > be a guarded secret. > > > What I'm > >confused about is how can a few static I-V curves > and some V-T curves done > >at specific loads be used to simulate other loads. > The I-V curves involve > >fully on transistors. The V-T curves involve > partially turned-on > transistors > >driving a specific load. > > Typically, an output buffer interacts with its load > over a period of several > nanoseconds while the signal rattles around and > eventually settles. Yet the > time it spends actually changing -- the time for the > drive to its output > transistors to switch -- is much less, perhaps a few > hundred picoseconds. > It is a fair approximation to treat the output > buffer as if it were static > (defined by one I-V curve or the other) almost all > of the time. In between > the two, it makes some sort of transition from one > I-V curve to another, in > a relatively short interval, the effects of which > might be swamped by the > interaction with the load. > > > Is it valid to scale the I-V curves using the V-T > >curves in order to derive the response to driving > other loads? > > Here's where you get into the proprietary details of > each simulator's > vendor. > > If you're lucky, the load for the V-T curves is > close to the trace > characteristic impedance. > > > Can the I-V > >curves and V-T curves be used to determine the > characteristics of a > >partially turned on transistor driving a different > load-I guess that is the > >source of my confusion. > > To varying degrees, apparently yes. > > Regards, > Andy Ingraham > > > === -------- Currently on leave for Intel projects -------- Office Phone: 253.371.4261 Mobile Phone: 408.718.3080 ------------------------------------------------------- Sigrity, Inc. Tel: 408.377.2180 2105 Hamilton Ave. Suite 310 Fax: 408.377.2565 Santa Clara, CA 95125 Web: www.sigrity.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From owner-ibis Thu Sep 2 07:32:44 1999 Received: from cosrel1.hp.com (cosrel1.hp.com [156.153.255.170]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id HAA21371 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from valencia.rsn.hp.com (valencia.rsn.hp.com [15.99.98.100]) by cosrel1.hp.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.5tis) with ESMTP id IAA17146; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:26:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from schumach@localhost) by valencia.rsn.hp.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) id JAA15560; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:25:50 -0500 (CDT) From: "Richard A. Schumacher" Message-Id: <199909021425.JAA15560@valencia.rsn.hp.com> Subject: RE: Paper on IBIS simulation algorithm To: chen@sigrity.com Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 9:25:49 CDT Cc: Andrew.Ingraham@compaq.com, ibis-users@eda.org, si-list@silab.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <19990901223038.14975.rocketmail@web1404.mail.yahoo.com>; from "Raymond Chen" at Sep 1, 99 3:30 pm X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 212.4] > We did some studies on IBIS simulation techniques > and algorithms back to 1996, and we did publish a > pretty detailed paper on that topic at 1996 ECTC > conference. You can download that file from our web > page at http://www.sigrity.com/support.htm, which is > the 11th paper titled as "Extraction of Transient > Behavioral Model of Digital I/O Buffers from IBIS". > That paper pointed out how to implement a simulation > algorithm to extract the transient behavior of ibis > model from the static I-V curve and V-T curve so you > can later simulate different load situations without > knowing the transistor level details. Hope that will > help. > > Raymond Chen Which vendors have implemented this algorithm? Who has tested such implementations with measurements of real devices in real circuits? regards, Richard Schumacher Hewlett Packard Company From owner-ibis Thu Sep 2 11:23:36 1999 Received: from web1404.mail.yahoo.com (web1404.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.168]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id LAA22092 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19990902181707.18083.rocketmail@web1404.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [134.134.248.22] by web1404.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 02 Sep 1999 11:17:07 PDT Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:17:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Raymond Chen Reply-To: chen@sigrity.com Subject: RE: Paper on IBIS simulation algorithm To: "Richard A. Schumacher" Cc: ibis-users@eda.org, si-list@silab.eng.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Richard, The paper "Extraction of Transient Behavioral Model of Digital I/O Buffers from IBIS" was the result of university research. I am not aware if any vendors have implemented the scheme. No measurements were done that time. The verification was done through the comparison with SPICE transistor level simulation, which gave good correlation. Raymond Y. Chen Sigrity, Inc. --- "Richard A. Schumacher" wrote: > > We did some studies on IBIS simulation > techniques > > and algorithms back to 1996, and we did publish a > > pretty detailed paper on that topic at 1996 ECTC > > conference. You can download that file from our > web > > page at http://www.sigrity.com/support.htm, which > is > > the 11th paper titled as "Extraction of Transient > > Behavioral Model of Digital I/O Buffers from > IBIS". > > That paper pointed out how to implement a > simulation > > algorithm to extract the transient behavior of > ibis > > model from the static I-V curve and V-T curve so > you > > can later simulate different load situations > without > > knowing the transistor level details. Hope that > will > > help. > > > > Raymond Chen > > Which vendors have implemented this algorithm? > Who has tested such implementations with > measurements > of real devices in real circuits? > > regards, > Richard Schumacher > Hewlett Packard Company > > === -------- Currently on leave for Intel projects -------- Office Phone: 253.371.4261 Mobile Phone: 408.718.3080 ------------------------------------------------------- Sigrity, Inc. Tel: 408.377.2180 2105 Hamilton Ave. Suite 310 Fax: 408.377.2565 Santa Clara, CA 95125 Web: www.sigrity.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From owner-ibis Thu Sep 2 13:54:40 1999 Received: from neon.transmeta.com (neon-best.transmeta.com [206.184.214.10]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id NAA22439 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 13:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from deepthought.transmeta.com (mailhost.transmeta.com [10.1.1.15]) by neon.transmeta.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA15280 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 13:47:38 -0700 Received: from transmeta.com (brucef@batris.transmeta.com [10.1.52.16]) by deepthought.transmeta.com (8.8.8+spamcan/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA01036 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 13:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Sender: brucef@transmeta.com Message-ID: <37CEE26A.7CF15352@transmeta.com> Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:47:38 -0700 From: Bruce Frederick Organization: Transmeta Corporation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: vinl/vinh parameter insertion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Other than hacking them into the resultant IBIS model is there a way to insert Vinh and Vinl into the control files for s2ibs model generator from NCSU. I've tried putting them into the control files but s2ibis doesn't like it. Thanks, -- Bruce Frederick Transmeta Corp. (408) 919-6323 From owner-ibis Thu Sep 2 14:45:24 1999 Received: from jasper.cisco.com (jasper.cisco.com [171.69.198.63]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA22538 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jasper.cisco.com (jasper.cisco.com [171.69.198.63]) by jasper.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA25624; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199909022138.OAA25624@jasper.cisco.com> Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:38:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Syed Huq Reply-To: Syed Huq Subject: Re: vinl/vinh parameter insertion To: ibis-users@eda.org, brucef@transmeta.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: p3keQB3k8ROs5IORacEvpg== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.2.1 CDE Version 1.2.1 SunOS 5.6 sun4m sparc Bruce, If your Model_type is 'Output', it maynot insert those parameters in. Are you using s2ibis2 or s2ibis ? Regards, Syed Cisco Systems, Inc > X-SMAP-Received-From: outside > Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:47:38 -0700 > From: Bruce Frederick > X-Accept-Language: en > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: vinl/vinh parameter insertion > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Other than hacking them into the resultant IBIS model is there a way to > insert Vinh and Vinl into the control files for s2ibs model generator > from NCSU. I've tried putting them into the control files but s2ibis > doesn't like it. > > > Thanks, > -- > Bruce Frederick > > Transmeta Corp. > (408) 919-6323 From owner-ibis Thu Sep 2 18:54:17 1999 Received: from omail30.unitel.co.kr (omail30.unitel.co.kr [203.241.135.155]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id SAA24076; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:54:15 -0700 (PDT) From: lsk1101@samsung.co.kr Received: from gp_man.sdsosc.co.kr (root@[101.1.1.30]) by omail30.unitel.co.kr (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA21015; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:42:32 +0900 (KST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by gp_man.sdsosc.co.kr (8.8.8H1/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA18752; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:41:02 +0900 (JST) X-OpenMail-Hops: 4 Priority: Urgent Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:48:03 +0900 Message-Id: Subject: Please add my name to the reflector's distribution list MIME-Version: 1.0 TO: ibis-info@eda.org, ibis-users@eda.org, ibis@eda.org, ibis-request@vhdl.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="mail.txt" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="mail.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, I'm Sung-Ki Lim of computer division in Samsung Electronics. I'd like to participate in IBIS group. Please add my email address to the reflector's distribution list. lsk1101@samsung.co.kr Thank you for your attention and have a nice day. Bye. From owner-ibis Tue Sep 7 12:23:28 1999 Received: from mail02-oak.pilot.net (mail-oak-2.pilot.net [198.232.147.17]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id MAA21361 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 12:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idt.com (unknown-5-20.idt.com [157.165.5.20] (may be forged)) by mail02-oak.pilot.net with ESMTP id MAA08086 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 12:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Eng.idt.com (root@maxwell.Eng.idt.com [157.165.21.24]) by idt.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id MAA28721 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 12:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mig.Eng.idt.com (mig.Eng.idt.com [157.165.31.143]) by Eng.idt.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA02298 ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 12:23:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Roy Gao Received: (rgao@localhost) by mig.Eng.idt.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA17367; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 12:23:23 -0700 Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 12:23:23 -0700 Message-Id: <199909071923.MAA17367@mig.Eng.idt.com> To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Spectre to create IBIS Cc: arthur@Eng.idt.com, anwar@Eng.idt.com Dear IBIS users, When I try to use spectre to create IBIS models, I met a problem: If there are current curves like Power-clamp or Pull-down, when I check model file, it always said like: pull-down has Decreasing Current or so. I observed the testbench created for that curve and found that in Spectre testbench, it will record all terminal currents of a component, so in output file there will be two set of currents values of voltage source, one is positive and one is negetive or vice versa. Unfortunately, IBIS creation will use the wrong set of current values and so the curve will be wrong. Since IBIS command file will create the test bench automatically, I can't control it. I wonder if you have ever used spectre for IBIS model or have some good idea. Thank you for your time. Roy From owner-ibis Tue Sep 7 20:35:20 1999 Received: from mailgate.cadence.com (mailgate.Cadence.COM [158.140.2.1]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id UAA22688 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 20:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by mailgate.cadence.com (8.8.5/8.6.8) id UAA23620; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 20:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zip.Cadence.COM(158.140.103.36) by mailgate.cadence.com via smap (mjr-v1.2) id xma936761716.023617; Tue, 7 Sep 99 20:35:16 -0700 Received: from cadence.com (annex-ch-22 [158.140.103.222]) by zip.Cadence.COM (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA21788; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 23:35:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37D5D94B.76FD15AD@cadence.com> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 23:34:35 -0400 From: Mike LaBonte Organization: Cadence Design Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Roy Gao CC: ibis-users@eda.org, arthur@Eng.idt.com, anwar@Eng.idt.com Subject: Re: Spectre to create IBIS References: <199909071923.MAA17367@mig.Eng.idt.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roy, It sounds like you are using s2ibis. I use s2ibis with Spectre and have not seen this problem. However, I see that half of the simulations run by s2ibis save current values with a a statement like: VOUTS2I pad 0 vsource type=dc dc=0 ... save VOUTS2I:currents and this generates plot data like: Plotname: DC Analysis `DCsweep': VOUTS2I:dc = (5.5 V -> 10.5 V) Flags: real No. Variables: 3 No. Points: 51 Variables: 0 dc V 1 VOUTS2I:n A plot=0 grid=0 2 VOUTS2I:p A plot=0 grid=0 ... So conceivably the positive terminal of VOUTS2I might be reported first, causing s2ibis to get reversed data. Is this happening in your case? And I wonder why it might happen only sometimes? Mike Roy Gao wrote: > > Dear IBIS users, > > When I try to use spectre to create IBIS models, I met a problem: > > If there are current curves like Power-clamp or Pull-down, when I check model file, it always said like: > pull-down has Decreasing Current or so. > > I observed the testbench created for that curve and found that in Spectre testbench, it will record all terminal currents of a component, so in output file there will be two set of currents values of voltage source, one is positive and one is negetive or vice versa. Unfortunately, IBIS creation will use the wrong set of current values and so the curve will be wrong. Since IBIS command file will create the test bench automatically, I can't control it. > > I wonder if you have ever used spectre for IBIS model or have some good idea. > > Thank you for your time. > > Roy From owner-ibis Tue Sep 14 15:07:40 1999 Received: from mail.nesa.com (mail.nesa.com [204.240.29.34]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA00932 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from porky (porky.nesa.com [204.240.29.45]) by mail.nesa.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA32076; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:52:35 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990914155925.009805f0@mail.nesa.com> X-Sender: breda@mail.nesa.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:59:25 -0400 To: ibis-users@eda.org From: Kathy Breda Subject: REMINDER - IBIS User's Group Meeting WEDS. 9/15/99 @ 3:00 pm @ NESA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" REMINDER MESSAGE - IBIS Users Group to be held tomorrow: The summer is winding up and it is time to move IBIS activities forward again. We also need to discuss the upcoming IBIS Summit being held at the Marlboro Holiday Inn on October 14th. Date: WEDNESDAY - September 15, 1999 Time: 3:00 pm - 5:00 pm Location: North East Systems Associates, Inc.(NESA), Stow, MA If you have not already, please let me know if you'll be joining us and if you would like to connect by telephone conference. Regards, Kathy Breda FYI - Directions to NESA can be found on our website: http://www.nesa.com/map.html +~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+ | NORTH EAST SYSTEMS ASSOCIATES, INC. | | ------------------------------------- | | "High Performance Engineering & Design" | +~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+ | Kathy Breda e-mail: breda@nesa.com | | NESA, Inc. http://www.nesa.com/ | | 636 Great Road Tel +1.978.897-8787 | | Stow, MA 01775 USA Fax +1.978.897-5359 | +~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+ From owner-ibis Thu Sep 16 09:39:24 1999 Received: from procyon.pmc-sierra.bc.ca (procyon.pmc-sierra.bc.ca [134.87.115.1]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id JAA11925 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmc-sierra.com (pmc_dhcp_pc92.pmc-sierra.bc.ca [134.87.176.92]) by procyon.pmc-sierra.bc.ca (6.6.6/6.6.6) with ESMTP id JAA16564 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:38:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37E11CF5.99268C47@pmc-sierra.com> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:38:13 -0700 From: Yash Mody Reply-To: yash_mody@pmc-sierra.com Organization: PMC-Sierra Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: requesting info Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello IBIS group, I read the IBIS Accuracy Specification v.1.2 which mentioned (in the Reference section) that an IBIS Accuracy Test Board Application Note was forthcoming. I was just wondering if I could perhaps get some preliminary information regarding this, since I will be building a Signal Integrity Test Board in the near future. Thank you for your assistance, - Yash Mody App.Eng. @ PMC-Sierra From owner-ibis Fri Sep 17 17:52:27 1999 Received: from gateway.sequent.com (gateway.sequent.com [138.95.18.1]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id RAA21164 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 17:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from order.sequent.com (order.sequent.com [138.95.19.11]) by gateway.sequent.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA29015 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 17:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by order.sequent.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 17:51:47 -0700 Message-ID: <0593FCC88F76D2118B4400E029249BD904912DCE@wingnut.sequent.com> From: "Chen, Run (chenru)" To: "'ibis-users@eda.org'" Subject: Questions regarding IBIS2SPICE Converter Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 17:51:45 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Dear ibis-users: I have some questions for IBIS2SPICE Converter. I don't understand some of the codes in template.mdl under IBIS2SPICE Converter. Hspice doesn't recognize these codes. These codes are the followings: ******************************************************************** * Input Control B1 820 0 V=V(100) & V(500) B2 830 0 V= V(500) & ~V(100) * Up and Down Ramps B3 300 850 I= V(830) > 1.2 ? 0 : V(300,850) / {RTR} S1 220 850 0 820 SMOD S2 840 220 0 830 SMOD .MODEL SMOD SW RON=.1M ROFF=1E15 VT=-1.2 VH=.1 ********************************************************************** If you could explain me what the above codes mean and how I can modify them into hspice codes, I would appreciate it. Regards, Run Chen Sequent Computer Systems Inc. From owner-ibis Tue Sep 21 11:47:10 1999 Received: from mailgw1.netvision.net.il (mailgw1.netvision.net.il [194.90.1.14]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id LAA12725 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 11:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a (RAS6-p99.hrz.netvision.net.il [62.0.155.227]) by mailgw1.netvision.net.il (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA28209 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 20:46:56 +0200 Message-ID: <000201bf0461$4bd5b9e0$e39b003e@a> From: "eh" To: Subject: Veribest Signal Integrity - crosstalk simulation, no IBIS models Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:43:20 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF0469.8EA4B7A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.37 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.37 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF0469.8EA4B7A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Sir/Mrs., I've heard that it is possible to simulate a layout and look for = crosstalk problems, even without IBIS models. The simulation will not be that accurate , and = it's OK with me. What I need to supply is that all the devices will have pin i/o = direction specified on the VBDC , and I've done it. I don't know how to supply the technology of the devices. I'm using Veribest tools, 1998. Have you heard about it ? Regards Simi Eshkol ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF0469.8EA4B7A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear = Sir/Mrs.,
I've heard that it is = possible to=20 simulate a layout and look for crosstalk problems,
even without IBIS = models.=20 The simulation will = not be that=20 accurate , and it's OK with me.
What I need to supply = is that all the=20 devices will have pin i/o direction specified
on the=20 VBDC , and I've done it.
I don't know how to = supply the=20 technology of the devices.
I'm using Veribest = tools,=20 1998.
Have you heard about it = ?
Regards
Simi Eshkol
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF0469.8EA4B7A0-- From owner-ibis Tue Sep 21 13:22:23 1999 Received: from mail02-oak.pilot.net (mail-oak-2.pilot.net [198.232.147.17]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id NAA13200 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idt.com (unknown-5-20.idt.com [157.165.5.20] (may be forged)) by mail02-oak.pilot.net with ESMTP id NAA23352 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Eng.idt.com (root@maxwell.Eng.idt.com [157.165.21.24]) by idt.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id NAA14239 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:22:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mig.Eng.idt.com (mig.Eng.idt.com [157.165.31.143]) by Eng.idt.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA26488 ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:22:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Roy Gao Received: (rgao@localhost) by mig.Eng.idt.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA03225; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:22:12 -0700 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:22:12 -0700 Message-Id: <199909212022.NAA03225@mig.Eng.idt.com> To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: when vdd=2.5V Cc: sangho@Eng.idt.com Dear IBIS users, After I create IBIS models (vdd=3.3v) for my i/o buffer, I change vdd to 2.5v and try again. Everthing seems fine expect that at the end of pull-up/pull-down section in IBIS model file, after -2.5v ~ 5.0v sweep, it will add a few lines which I attach here, I try a few buffers and got the same results. I wonder if s2ibis2 can't handle vdd=2.5v? Thank you for your help! ------------------------- -2.50 -0.108A -66.400mA -0.124A -2.30 -0.108A -65.600mA -0.125A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4.80 0.169A 0.173A 0.171A 5.00 0.192A 0.194A 0.195A 0.00 1.082e-312A 3.395e-313A 1.401e-312A 0.00 0.000A 0.000A 0.000A 0.00 0.000A 0.000A 0.000A 5.00 0.192A 0.194A 0.195A ----------------------------- Roy IDT Inc. From owner-ibis Wed Sep 22 08:59:20 1999 Received: from ganymede.or.intel.com (ganymede.or.intel.com [134.134.248.3]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id IAA19207; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 08:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orsmsx28.jf.intel.com (orsmsx28.jf.intel.com [192.168.65.28]) by ganymede.or.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.6 1998/11/24 22:10:56 iwep Exp iwep $) with ESMTP id IAA09585; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 08:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by orsmsx28.jf.intel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 08:59:13 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Hobbs, Will" To: "'Bob Ross'" , ibis@eda.org, ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: IBIS Version 3.2 - ANSI/EIA-656-A Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 08:59:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Congratulations everyone, and thanks for all your hard work!! Will Hobbs Intel Corp. (and Former Chair-- that's an official position isn't it?) -----Original Message----- From: Bob Ross [mailto:bob_ross@mentorg.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 8:37 AM To: ibis@eda.org; ibis-users@eda.org Cc: bob_ross@mentorg.com Subject: IBIS Version 3.2 - ANSI/EIA-656-A To All: Cecilia Fleming of EIA has just informed me that ANSI has approved IBIS Version 3.2. The document now is designated: ANSI/EIA-656-A Congratulations to all who have worked hard over the years to initiate and consider the issues and to produce the document. Bob Ross Chair., EIA IBIS Open Forum Mentor Graphics From owner-ibis Wed Sep 22 08:37:17 1999 Received: from relay1.wv.mentorg.com (relay1.mentorg.com [192.94.38.42]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id IAA19130; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 08:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from em-wv03.wv.mentorg.com by relay1.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40F) id IAA03586; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 08:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mentor.com by em-wv03.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40R) id IAA27768; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 08:36:37 -0700 (PDT) Sender: bob_ross@mentorg.com Message-ID: <37E8F785.419987DC@mentor.com> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 08:36:37 -0700 From: Bob Ross X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ibis@eda.org, ibis-users@eda.org CC: bob_ross@mentorg.com Subject: IBIS Version 3.2 - ANSI/EIA-656-A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All: Cecilia Fleming of EIA has just informed me that ANSI has approved IBIS Version 3.2. The document now is designated: ANSI/EIA-656-A Congratulations to all who have worked hard over the years to initiate and consider the issues and to produce the document. Bob Ross Chair., EIA IBIS Open Forum Mentor Graphics From owner-ibis Thu Sep 23 14:34:07 1999 Received: from molexinc-bh.molex.com (molexinc-bh.molex.com [204.167.149.66]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA28431; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 14:34:07 -0700 (PDT) From: apanella@molex.com Received: (from uucp@localhost) by molexinc-bh.molex.com (8.8.8/8.6.11) id QAA01654; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 16:33:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from unknown(150.150.15.100) by molexinc-bh.molex.com via smap (4.1) id xma001531; Thu, 23 Sep 99 16:33:32 -0500 Received: from ccMail by smtp1.molex.com (IMA Internet Exchange 3.12) id 0004E6E0; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 16:34:30 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 16:27:19 -0500 Message-ID: <0004E6E0.C21030@molex.com> Subject: RE: package and connector model questions To: Aubrey_Sparkman@dell.com, kellee@hyperlynx.com, ibis-users@eda.org, mbflora@hyperlynx.com, bob_ross@mentorg.com, ibis@eda.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Aubrey, There are rough drafts of this wording... created... They are now under review. These descriptions are really to describe the format of the values in the matrices (as related to the final simulation) I would suggest a review of the samples may assist in understanding the specification. Most (all?) of the points you bring up are covered in the specification... however... to implement this... a rather complex format was needed to be created. I think the examples may be helpful in clearing up the issues. As an off note.... the IBISCnn specification is not a part of the general IBIS v3.2 spec.... maaybe the next one??? I'll try to address your specific questions now... Re "unmated connector" Need these to represent connectors that are not mated but are still on the bus. For instance, an empty PCI slot in a PC. Re: "Part of Package Modeling Spec..." The package modeling spec does not have stubs, cascaded models, swath, other?? As such, instead, maybe packages could be represented by the connector spec. Re: "Trace to Trace Coupling Effects The off diagonals of the matrices take care of the coupling. The distributed effects are handled by the "cascaded sections". These cascaded sections also allow the series connection of SLMs and MLMs in series or as stubs in the same model. The "Sections" area of the specification allows the installation of as many matrices in a model as required.... These sections can then be hooked up in the "Begin_Connector" area. There are examples that contain multiple cascaded sections. Re: "Min / Max LC values" These values are typically very tightly controlled in the final assembled connector... More variability in LC is always in the process where the connector gets mounted to a board. (Solder hole fill, board warp, connector floating during a reflow, other..) Best Regards, Gus apanella@molex.com -----Original Message----- From: Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com Sent: Thursday, September 23, 1999 3:59 PM To: kellee@hyperlynx.com; ibis-users@eda.org; mbflora@hyperlynx.com; bob_ross@mentorg.com; ibis@eda.org Subject: package and connector model questions Hello ibis-users. I am new to the discussion group -- joined the end of July. I have read through the Version 3.2 spec and the ibisConSpec documents and I have 2 questions. The first question has to do with Kellee's outstanding item below. I.E., why not use the RLC matrix description in section 7 on package modeling? I am not sure why Connector modeling isn't (or couldn't be) a subset of the package modeling spec. After all, a package is a connector that connects the silicon to a PCB....or socket, which is again another connector. And before someone comments "un-mated connector" I also wonder why I need the model for an unmated connector or a package out of the socket, etc. But there are some excellent modeling enhancements in the connector spec such as Begin/End_Cn_Swath. Great way to simplify what could be an unnecessarily large matrix. Can we put this in the package model section? At least where possible, let's keep (or copy) everything that is or could be the same. And I also like the ability to name and therefore have more than one RLC matrix. Which brings me to my second (and more important to me) question. As I read section 7 of Ver 3.2, I can have only one RLC matrix set. I can't put two RLC sets in series. Or, if I want to do distributed effects, I can do sections (a wire bond section, a trace section, a via section, another trace section, etc) but I can NOT have "trace to trace" coupling effects. And I can not connect several uncoupled sections to the single RLC matrix which would at least give me some coupling. Is this a correct statement of my options? I was hoping for the ability to connect more than one matrix in series. And since the point of having a matrix is the coupling, I was also looking for the typ, min, and max coupled matrix for L and C. Is this too much for one message? Thanks for your consideration and patience, Aubrey Sparkman Signal Integrity Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com (512) 723-3592 -----Original Message----- From: Kellee Crisafulli [mailto:kellee@hyperlynx.com] Sent: Monday, August 23, 1999 12:56 PM To: ibis-users@eda.org; Matthew Flora Subject: Re: USB connector model Hi Ibisians, Matt, Matt thanks for giving the correct web address for the preliminary connector specification. FYI.. The only outstanding item in the connector specification is to agree on the wording of the RLC matrix description. I have asked several industry experts to write it and have not received one from anyone yet. If someone else out their would like to contribute a technically correct RLC matrix description that would allow someone "skilled in the art" to understand which type of RLC matrix is being used I am interested. If I end up with more than one I would be extremely happy. It must have a simple included example of both a physical cross section and the resulting matrices. Ideally it would explain things like what the diagonal is and why there are sometimes negative signs. When we receive this and the connector sub-group reviews it and accepts it I believe we are ready to give it to the IBIS group as a bird. At 10:28 AM 8/23/99 -0700, you wrote: >> Wilco Hamhuis writes: >> > I have two short questions: Is IBIS capable of describing a (coupled) >> > connector? Are there IBIS USB connector models available? I am currently >> > analysing a high speed board (app. 500 MHz) and I want to take the effect >of >> > connectors into account. >> >> There is an IBIS working group that has proposed an IBIS extension for >> connectors that supports coupling, but it has not yet become >> a part of the official standard. If you are interested, a copy of the >> proposal is on the Hyperlynx website at www.hyperlynx.com. As for your >> specific need, I am not aware of any IBIS USB connector models, but others >> may know of some. > >Actually, the proposed IBIS extension for connectors can best be found at: >ftp://ftp.eda.org/pub/ibis/connector/ > >Regards, >Matthew Flora >IBIS Open Forum Postmaster >(425) 869-2320 PH >(425) 881-1008 FAX >mbflora@hyperlynx.com >HyperLynx, 14715 NE 95th Street, Redmond, WA 98052 USA > From owner-ibis Thu Sep 23 14:02:18 1999 Received: from ns2.us.dell.com (ns2.us.dell.com [143.166.82.252]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA27357; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 14:02:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com Received: from ausxc06.us.dell.com (ausxc06.us.dell.com [143.166.99.78]) by ns2.us.dell.com (8.8.5/DELL-INET-10-14-1997) with ESMTP id PAA19391; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:01:08 -0600 (GMT) Received: by ausxc06.us.dell.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:59:13 -0500 Message-ID: <592744F5B558D21183E000A0C9C732C3024B1F07@ausxmbrh15.us.dell.com> To: kellee@hyperlynx.com, ibis-users@eda.org, mbflora@hyperlynx.com, bob_ross@mentorg.com, ibis@eda.org Subject: package and connector model questions Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:59:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01BF0606.7CA354B4" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01BF0606.7CA354B4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello ibis-users. I am new to the discussion group -- joined the end of July. I have read through the Version 3.2 spec and the ibisConSpec documents and I have 2 questions. The first question has to do with Kellee's outstanding item below. I.E., why not use the RLC matrix description in section 7 on package modeling? I am not sure why Connector modeling isn't (or couldn't be) a subset of the package modeling spec. After all, a package is a connector that connects the silicon to a PCB....or socket, which is again another connector. And before someone comments "un-mated connector" I also wonder why I need the model for an unmated connector or a package out of the socket, etc. But there are some excellent modeling enhancements in the connector spec such as Begin/End_Cn_Swath. Great way to simplify what could be an unnecessarily large matrix. Can we put this in the package model section? At least where possible, let's keep (or copy) everything that is or could be the same. And I also like the ability to name and therefore have more than one RLC matrix. Which brings me to my second (and more important to me) question. As I read section 7 of Ver 3.2, I can have only one RLC matrix set. I can't put two RLC sets in series. Or, if I want to do distributed effects, I can do sections (a wire bond section, a trace section, a via section, another trace section, etc) but I can NOT have "trace to trace" coupling effects. And I can not connect several uncoupled sections to the single RLC matrix which would at least give me some coupling. Is this a correct statement of my options? I was hoping for the ability to connect more than one matrix in series. And since the point of having a matrix is the coupling, I was also looking for the typ, min, and max coupled matrix for L and C. Is this too much for one message? Thanks for your consideration and patience, Aubrey Sparkman Signal Integrity Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com (512) 723-3592 -----Original Message----- From: Kellee Crisafulli [mailto:kellee@hyperlynx.com] Sent: Monday, August 23, 1999 12:56 PM To: ibis-users@eda.org; Matthew Flora Subject: Re: USB connector model Hi Ibisians, Matt, Matt thanks for giving the correct web address for the preliminary connector specification. FYI.. The only outstanding item in the connector specification is to agree on the wording of the RLC matrix description. I have asked several industry experts to write it and have not received one from anyone yet. If someone else out their would like to contribute a technically correct RLC matrix description that would allow someone "skilled in the art" to understand which type of RLC matrix is being used I am interested. If I end up with more than one I would be extremely happy. It must have a simple included example of both a physical cross section and the resulting matrices. Ideally it would explain things like what the diagonal is and why there are sometimes negative signs. When we receive this and the connector sub-group reviews it and accepts it I believe we are ready to give it to the IBIS group as a bird. At 10:28 AM 8/23/99 -0700, you wrote: >> Wilco Hamhuis writes: >> > I have two short questions: Is IBIS capable of describing a (coupled) >> > connector? Are there IBIS USB connector models available? I am currently >> > analysing a high speed board (app. 500 MHz) and I want to take the effect >of >> > connectors into account. >> >> There is an IBIS working group that has proposed an IBIS extension for >> connectors that supports coupling, but it has not yet become >> a part of the official standard. If you are interested, a copy of the >> proposal is on the Hyperlynx website at www.hyperlynx.com. As for your >> specific need, I am not aware of any IBIS USB connector models, but others >> may know of some. > >Actually, the proposed IBIS extension for connectors can best be found at: >ftp://ftp.eda.org/pub/ibis/connector/ > >Regards, >Matthew Flora >IBIS Open Forum Postmaster >(425) 869-2320 PH >(425) 881-1008 FAX >mbflora@hyperlynx.com >HyperLynx, 14715 NE 95th Street, Redmond, WA 98052 USA > ------_=_NextPart_000_01BF0606.7CA354B4 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Sparkman, Aubrey.vcf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Sparkman, Aubrey.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Sparkman;Aubrey FN:Sparkman, Aubrey EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com REV:19990728T212924Z END:VCARD ------_=_NextPart_000_01BF0606.7CA354B4-- From owner-ibis Fri Sep 24 00:15:07 1999 Received: from rgate.ricochet.net (rgate1.ricochet.net [204.179.143.6]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id AAA01563; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 00:15:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hyperstar (mg-206253202-32.ricochet.net [206.253.202.32]) by rgate.ricochet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA07001; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 02:14:46 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199909240714.CAA07001@rgate.ricochet.net> X-Sender: kellee@pop.nwlink.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 20:45:00 -0700 To: Aubrey_Sparkman@dell.com, kellee@hyperlynx.com, ibis-users@eda.org, mbflora@hyperlynx.com, bob_ross@mentorg.com, ibis@eda.org From: Kellee Crisafulli Subject: Re: package and connector model questions In-Reply-To: <592744F5B558D21183E000A0C9C732C3024B1F07@ausxmbrh15.us.del l.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Aubrey all, At 03:59 PM 9/23/99 -0500, Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com wrote: >The first question has to do with Kellee's outstanding item below. I.E., >why not use the RLC matrix description in section 7 on package modeling? I >am not sure why Connector modeling isn't (or couldn't be) a subset of the >package modeling spec. After all, a package is a connector that connects >the silicon to a PCB....or socket, which is again another connector. And >before someone comments "un-mated connector" I also wonder why I need the >model for an unmated connector or a package out of the socket, etc. Wow good comments... here is some of our thinking but many more heads and ideas made these decisions than just mine. The connector group made several decisions up front: 1) The specification should be stand-alone to remove the overhead associated with the IBIS IC specification which is getting very complex. Several of the connector companies that were interested in using the connector specification expressed concern over the need to understand the full IBIS specification in order to make a connector model. 2) The matrix descriptions must be compatible with the IBIS .pkg specification. 3) The general syntax must be the same as the IBIS specification. 4) Some of the concepts needed for connectors were missing from the .pkg specification and were much easier to accomplish as a stand alone specification. You mentioned a few. The biggest concern I personally had is that since the specification was constrained to just connectors there was less disagreement over what and how to do it. We attempted this once before integrated in the main specification and the project failed. One of the reasons was difficulty getting agreement on how to proceed with various aspects. Another was different groups had different needs i.e. cables v.s. connectors. v.s. IC packages and that added another set of problems that caused disagreements. I do believe the connector specification concepts and keywords could be used to augment the .pkg model since the connector specification is mostly a super set and contains many improvements. The people in the connector group fully expected many of the features to migrate directly to the .pkg specification over time. We also have many other new features like support for .jpg images of the connector and web site and email paths that can be added directly into the file so a user can easily get the latest version model or contact the department that created the model. These features should probably migrated back into the IBIS IC specification. Can you image being able to access the correct web site by just clicking on your connector model picture. Or being able to email the correct department of the company that created the model by clicking on an email icon. way... cool. if the simulator folks pick up on it. I found it is often a mistake to try and make one size shoe fit everyone. If we can use the same shoe leather, laces and polish and manufacturing equipment we are doing very good. (i.e. the syntax is compatible and we could re-use the concepts and keywords directly). If the syntax is left compatible the simulators should have an easy time supporting either with the same code and parsers. >But there are some excellent modeling enhancements in the connector spec >such as Begin/End_Cn_Swath. Great way to simplify what could be an >unnecessarily large matrix. Can we put this in the package model section? >At least where possible, let's keep (or copy) everything that is or could be >the same. And I also like the ability to name and therefore have more than >one RLC matrix. Speaking for the connector sub group we appreciate the kind words . >Which brings me to my second (and more important to me) question. As I read >section 7 of Ver 3.2, I can have only one RLC matrix set. I can't put two >RLC sets in series. Or, if I want to do distributed effects, I can do >sections (a wire bond section, a trace section, a via section, another trace >section, etc) but I can NOT have "trace to trace" coupling effects. And I >can not connect several uncoupled sections to the single RLC matrix which >would at least give me some coupling. Is this a correct statement of my >options? >I was hoping for the ability to connect more than one matrix in series. >And since the point of having a matrix is the coupling, I was also looking >for the typ, min, and max coupled matrix for L and C. The connector specification allows for as many series matrices as you desire and the matrices may all be of different types. So the first matrix might be simple inductors to represent bond wires and then a series of diagonal matrices to represent transmission lines and then a series of full matrices to represent a coupled region. This method could be added to the .pkg file very easily if the IBIS group desired. I should be able to complete the final integration of feedback and release the connector specification to the full IBIS group very soon. We have received comments from the full group already at DesignCon 99 and we are hoping for rapid acceptance. I am only working 3 days a week so my schedule is limited and it is taking longer than I would like to complete. Hopefully within the next one to two weeks. best wishes... Kellee From owner-ibis Fri Sep 24 10:21:51 1999 Received: from mail.nesa.com (mail.nesa.com [204.240.29.34]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id KAA07006; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 10:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from porky (porky.nesa.com [204.240.29.45]) by mail.nesa.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA23298; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 10:52:52 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990924110012.0095b210@mail.nesa.com> X-Sender: breda@mail.nesa.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 11:00:12 -0400 To: ibis-users@eda.org, ibis@eda.org From: Kathy Breda Subject: IBIS Summit - Thursday, 14-Oct-99 - AGENDA included Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------- IBIS SUMMIT CALL FOR PARTICIPATION, PRESENTATIONS & SPONSORSHIP!!!! ------------------------------------------------------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I B I S S U M M I T M E E T I N G Time/Date: 8:30 AM - 5:00 PM, Thursday, October 14, 1999 Location: Marlboro Holiday Inn (NOT AT THE BOXBORO HOLIDAY INN THIS YEAR) 265 Lakeside Ave. Marlboro, MA Tel: (508) 481-3000 Content: Presentations and Discussions Purpose: Solicit and Exchange IBIS Model Related Information and Ideas. Sponsors: North East Systems Associates, Inc. (NESA), Hyperlynx, Praegitzer Design we are looking for other sponsors! PCB Conference: October 11-15, 1999 East Royal Plaza Trade Center Marlborough, Massachusetts See http://www.pcbeast.com/ for more information. BACKGROUND The IBIS Users Group (IBIS East) has been formed under the leadership of Dr. Edward Sayre from North East Systems Associates (NESA) and has been meeting for a year to consider and forward IBIS model user concerns. As a result of regular East coast meetings, the group has developed an IBIS Accuracy Specification document and has helped move forward work on formatting Connector Models. These topics plus others of current interest to the EIA IBIS Open Forum will be discussed at this meeting. This meeting will be conducted as a formal IBIS Summit meeting. Presentations are expected to be available and archived in an electronic format, and minutes of the meeting will be issued. Any pending formal decisions (votes) will be announced at least two weeks prior to the meeting. If you are interested in attending, please send e-mail to Kathy Breda (breda@nesa.com) AGENDA Morning Sessions Focused on Round-Table, Open Discussions: Intro and Business Bob Ross / Ed Sayre Accuracy Specification Lead by Bob Haller Break Connector Specification Discussion leader TBD SPICE to IBIS Discussion Discussion leader TBD Lunch Afternoon Sessions Focused on Presentation Topics: Round Table Discussion: Input Modeling Discussion, Discussion leader TBD "Model Design: Tables and Equations" - Lynne Green, Hyperlynx Break (Sponsored by Praegitzer Design) "Model Extraction Based on Differential TDR" - Dima Smolyansky or Steven Cory, TDA Systems We have time for one more presentation! Contact Kathy Breda (breda@nesa.com) if you are interested Format of Presentation: Overhead Projections Time: 15-30 Minutes Electronic Archival: We request electronic versions so that the presentations can be archived and also made available to non-attendees. Formats used in the past have been text, Power Point, Word, Postscript, and Acrobat. Electronic presentations should be made available by October 8, 1999. Otherwise the presenters will be expected to provide 50 copies for distribution. **************************************************************************** DIRECTIONS TO MEETING The Marlboro Holiday Inn is located at the junction of Route 20 and I-495 (exit 24A off I-495 North or South) Located 4 miles from the Massachusetts Turnpike and One Mile from I-290. Thirty miles from Boston and Logan International Airport **************************************************************************** LIST OF NEARBY HOTELS Marlboro Holiday Inn 265 Lakeside Ave. Marlboro, MA Tel: (508)481-3000 Boxboro Holiday Inn. One Adams Place Boxboro, MA Tel: (978) 263-8701 Fax: (978) 263-0518 Royal Plaza Hotel 181 Boston Post road West Marlborough, MA 01752 Tel: (508) 460-0700 Radisson Inn 75 Felton St. Marlboro, MA Tel: (508) 480-0015 Embassy Suites Hotels 123 Boston Post Rd. West Marlboro, MA (508) 485-5900 Amerscot House 61 West Acton Road Stow, MA 01775 email: doreen@amerscot.com, web site http://www.amerscot.com Tel: (508)897-0666, FAX (508)897-6914 Westford Regency Inn 219 Littleton Rd. (exit 32 off I-495) Westford, MA Tel: (978) 692-8200 +~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+ | NORTH EAST SYSTEMS ASSOCIATES, INC. | | ------------------------------------- | | "High Performance Engineering & Design" | +~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+ | Kathy Breda e-mail: breda@nesa.com | | NESA, Inc. http://www.nesa.com/ | | 636 Great Road Tel +1.978.897-8787 | | Stow, MA 01775 USA Fax +1.978.897-5359 | +~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+ From owner-ibis Fri Sep 24 13:22:03 1999 Received: from ganymede.or.intel.com (ganymede.or.intel.com [134.134.248.3]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id NAA07785; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ichips-jf.jf.intel.com (ichips-jf.jf.intel.com [134.134.50.200]) by ganymede.or.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.6 1998/11/24 22:10:56 iwep Exp iwep $) with ESMTP id NAA07374; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xtg801.pdx.intel.com (xtg801.pdx.intel.com [134.134.114.35]) by ichips-jf.jf.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: internal.m4,v 1.2 1998/11/09 19:18:37 iwep Exp iwep $) with ESMTP id NAA13181; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ichips.intel.com (localhost.pdx.intel.com [127.0.0.1]) by xtg801.pdx.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: client.m4,v 1.3 1998/09/29 16:36:11 sedayao Exp sedayao $) with ESMTP id NAA09225; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199909242021.NAA09225@xtg801.pdx.intel.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0delta 6/3/97 To: Aubrey_Sparkman@dell.com, ibis-users@eda.org, ibis@eda.org Subject: Re: package and connector model questions In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 23 Sep 1999 20:45:00 PDT." <199909240714.CAA07001@rgate.ricochet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:21:52 -0700 From: Stephen Peters Hello Kellie, Aurbey, all: > At 03:59 PM 9/23/99 -0500, Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com wrote: > >The first question has to do with Kellee's outstanding item below. I.E., > >why not use the RLC matrix description in section 7 on package modeling? I > >am not sure why Connector modeling isn't (or couldn't be) a subset of the > >package modeling spec. After all, a package is a connector that connects > >the silicon to a PCB....or socket, which is again another connector. And > >before someone comments "un-mated connector" I also wonder why I need the > >model for an unmated connector or a package out of the socket, etc. > As one of the authors of the .pkg extensions, I'd like to add a comment. It is tempting to think of an IC package as 'just another type of connector', but in reality an IC package is much closer to a circuit board than a connector. In fact, for many of the high performance products I've seen, the package IS a circuit board, complete with edge fingers or pins to connect it to a mother board. The problem is that when trying to create an electrical description of this type of package you're not dealing with a group of parallel pins of equal length. You've got *traces* that have different lengths, diverge, switch layers, who knows what else. To model the coupling requires having many small matrixes that are named or somehow interrelated. After we played with it for a while we realized that 1) Even if we could agree on a description no one is going to create such a data base by hand and 2) it's a problem the CAE companies have already solved by integrating PCB extraction with! ! their SI tools. Thus, we settled on what we could achieve -- a simpler uncoupled description. As Kellie mentioned, I do expect that some of the extensions the connector group has come up with will find there way into the .pkg section. But I suspect other approach will be needed before IBIS will support full coupled package models. Regards, Stephen Peters Intel Corp. From owner-ibis Fri Sep 24 15:51:36 1999 Received: from jasper.cisco.com (jasper.cisco.com [171.69.198.63]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA08187 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jasper.cisco.com (jasper.cisco.com [171.69.198.63]) by jasper.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA15910 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:50:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199909242250.PAA15910@jasper.cisco.com> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:50:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Syed Huq Reply-To: Syed Huq Subject: parser chk for sweep range To: ibis-users@eda.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: RkAGz62/ENOshSOtdDS2Hw== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.2.1 CDE Version 1.2.1 SunOS 5.6 sun4m sparc Hi, I recently got a model and it passed the ibischk3.2.2 parser even though the model did not use the IBIS specified voltage sweep ranges. Is this correct ? Regards, Syed Cisco Systems, Inc From owner-ibis Fri Sep 24 17:46:57 1999 Received: from relay1.wv.mentorg.com (relay1.mentorg.com [192.94.38.42]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id RAA10660 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from em-wv03.wv.mentorg.com by relay1.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40F) id RAA23640; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mentor.com by em-wv03.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40R) id RAA06218; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:46:17 -0700 (PDT) Sender: bob_ross@mentorg.com Message-ID: <37EC1B59.856A8A36@mentor.com> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:46:17 -0700 From: Bob Ross X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Syed Huq CC: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: parser chk for sweep range References: <199909242250.PAA15910@jasper.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit syed: The parser does not check for the specified voltage ranges. Bob Ross Mentor Graphics Syed Huq wrote: > > Hi, > > I recently got a model and it passed the ibischk3.2.2 parser even though the > model did not use the IBIS specified voltage sweep ranges. > > Is this correct ? > > Regards, > Syed > Cisco Systems, Inc From owner-ibis Sun Sep 26 12:52:26 1999 Received: from hotmail.com (law-f203.hotmail.com [209.185.130.113]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id MAA16473 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 12:52:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 98629 invoked by uid 0); 26 Sep 1999 19:51:48 -0000 Message-ID: <19990926195148.98628.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 210.56.13.16 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 12:51:48 PDT X-Originating-IP: [210.56.13.16] From: "wamiq ahmed" To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: simulation of mc13176, mc2833 and mc3356 Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 12:51:48 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I am an ee senior student working on my ee senior project. I need some software tool for the simulations of the mc 13176, mc2833 and mc3356 ic's. I would be pleased and highly obliged if some one could help me regarding that. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-ibis Wed Sep 29 07:48:32 1999 Received: from poke.dmz.st.com (poke.stmicroelectronics.com [195.101.81.2]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id HAA04873 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eux100.sgp.st.com (eux100.sgp.st.com [164.129.225.7]) by poke.dmz.st.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA18994 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 16:47:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from st.com (agrmpgc3.mpg.agr.st.com [164.130.14.103]) by eux100.sgp.st.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_17190)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA11512; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 16:47:43 +0200 (METDST) Sender: lsimeldo@eux100.sgp.st.com Message-ID: <37F2263F.85D6653A@st.com> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 16:46:23 +0200 From: batman Organization: ST Microelectronics X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Mos Drain-Bulk Junction current Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I would like to ask you in which way it is possible to obtain the V/I IBIS curve trough Hspice simulation. My supply voltage is 3.3V and my output buffer is a standard C-MOS. Considering the pull-down element, I force on the buffer output -6.6 V in order to obtain the first point of my IV curve. Thus I turn on the N-Mos Drain-Bulk juncition and the current value is like 1e20 A. I have to use a resistor in order to limit this current . I would like to know what is the resistor to use (Rref, R_pck , ..) and if I have to add other elements like Cref Rref Vref, Rload, Cload ..... Thank you in advance for your answer , Your Sincerelly Riccardo Giordani e-mail: riccardo.giordani@st.com From owner-ibis Wed Sep 29 07:47:01 1999 Received: from poke.dmz.st.com (poke.stmicroelectronics.com [195.101.81.2]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id HAA04868 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eux100.sgp.st.com (eux100.sgp.st.com [164.129.225.7]) by poke.dmz.st.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA18860 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 16:46:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from st.com (agrmpgc3.mpg.agr.st.com [164.130.14.103]) by eux100.sgp.st.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_17190)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA09447; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 16:46:13 +0200 (METDST) Sender: lsimeldo@eux100.sgp.st.com Message-ID: <37F225E4.F5062C4D@st.com> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 16:44:52 +0200 From: batman Organization: ST Microelectronics X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ibis-users@eda.org CC: riccardo.giordani@st.com Subject: Mos Drain-Bulk Junction current Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I would like to ask you in which way it is possible to obtain the V/I IBIS curve trough Hspice simulation. My supply voltage is 3.3V and my output buffer is a standard C-MOS. Considering the pull-down element, I force on the buffer output -6.6 V in order to obtain the first point of my IV curve. Thus I turn on the N-Mos Drain-Bulk juncition and the current value is like 1e20 A. I have to use a resistor in order to limit this current . I would like to know what is the resistor to use (Rref, R_pck , ..) and if I have to add other elements like Cref Rref Vref, Rload, Cload ..... Thank you in advance for your answer , Your Sincerelly Riccardo Giordani e-mail: riccardo.giordani@st.com