From owner-ibis Sun Apr 1 01:49:27 2001 Received: from natsemi-bh.nsc.com (natsemi-bh.nsc.com [204.163.202.66]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f319nP511568 for ; Sun, 1 Apr 2001 01:49:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by natsemi-bh.nsc.com (8.8.8/8.6.11) id BAA22417 for ; Sun, 1 Apr 2001 01:49:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from nsc.nsc.com(139.187.81.1) by natsemi-bh.nsc.com via smap (4.1) id xma022350; Sun, 1 Apr 01 01:48:26 -0800 Received: from taux01.nsc.com (taux01.nsc.com [139.187.251.4]) by nsc.nsc.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA20718 for ; Sun, 1 Apr 2001 01:48:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from taux01.nsc.com (tasu45 [139.187.253.93]) by taux01.nsc.com (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA29271; Sun, 1 Apr 2001 11:46:23 +0200 (IST) Sender: dimita@taux01.nsc.com Message-ID: <3AC6F8EE.641D3909@taux01.nsc.com> Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 11:46:22 +0200 From: Dimitry Aizenstat Organization: National Semiconductor X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: ru, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ibis-users@vhdl.org Subject: hspice failed on io_buffer IBIS model Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, all! I have a problem with IBIS model that I created via s2ibis: when I run hspice with this model using "b_io" instance statement (actually the customer needs run it), the error "incorrect Pull_Down and/or Pull_Up data" appears, but tables itself looks ok in *.ibs file.I use 1999.2 version of the Star-Hspice. Maybe someone has experience with using IBIS buffer model in hspice & debugging of same errors? Thank you for your help. Regards, Dmitry -- +---------------------------------------------------------+ | Dmitry Aizenshtat Circuit Design Engineer, NSTA | | Tel : 972-9-9702-020 Fax : 972-9-9702-001 | | mailto:dimita@taux01.nsc.com | +---------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-ibis Mon Apr 2 08:27:02 2001 Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f32FQw517893 for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 08:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.45.34]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA4A0E; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 08:31:44 -0700 Sender: "Kim Helliwell" Message-ID: <3AC89A25.F7D3731@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 08:26:29 -0700 From: Kim Helliwell Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dimitry Aizenstat CC: ibis-users@vhdl.org Subject: Re: hspice failed on io_buffer IBIS model References: <3AC6F8EE.641D3909@taux01.nsc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dimitry Aizenstat wrote: > > Hi, all! > I have a problem with IBIS model that I created via s2ibis: when I run > hspice with this model using "b_io" instance statement (actually the > customer needs run it), the error "incorrect Pull_Down and/or Pull_Up > data" appears, but tables itself looks ok in *.ibs file.I use 1999.2 > version of the Star-Hspice. > Maybe someone has experience with using IBIS buffer model in hspice & > debugging of same errors? > Thank you for your help. > Regards, > Dmitry > -- > +---------------------------------------------------------+ > | Dmitry Aizenshtat Circuit Design Engineer, NSTA | > | Tel : 972-9-9702-020 Fax : 972-9-9702-001 | > | mailto:dimita@taux01.nsc.com | > +---------------------------------------------------------+ If you have your maintenance in force, your best bet would be to call the HSPICE hotline: 800.346.5953. If you don't have maintenance in force, why not? -- Kim Helliwell Senior CAE Engineer Acuson Corporation Phone: 650 694 5030 FAX: 650 943 7260 From owner-ibis Mon Apr 2 11:04:04 2001 Received: from ext-ch1gw-4.online-age.net (ext-ch1gw-4.online-age.net [216.34.191.39]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f32I41520383 for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 11:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from int-ch1gw-2.online-age.net (int-ch1gw-2 [3.159.232.66]) by ext-ch1gw-4.online-age.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1/990426-RLH) with ESMTP id OAA21043 for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 14:03:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uswaumsxb4medge.med.ge.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by int-ch1gw-2.online-age.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1/990426-RLH) with ESMTP id OAA08935 for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 14:02:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by USWAUMSXB4MEDGE with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2C6C3ZK6>; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 13:02:45 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Mathew, Elizabeth (MED)" To: "IBIS User Group (E-mail)" Subject: S2IBIS Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 13:02:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi IBIS gurus, Is there anyone in the users group who is using the NT version of the s2ibis tool (Spice to IBIS translator)? Please reply to me if you are. Thanks, Elizabeth Elizabeth Mathew Signal Integrity Expert, Global Electrical Technology Center, GE Medical Systems, Phone:(262)544-3776 Fax:(262)548-2315 From owner-ibis Tue Apr 3 14:12:37 2001 Received: from mail02-oak.pilot.net (mail-oak-2.pilot.net [198.232.147.17]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f33LCZ529158 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 14:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newsgate.xilinx.com (mailgate.xilinx.com [149.199.60.204]) by mail02-oak.pilot.net with ESMTP id OAA06978 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 14:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from renfield.xbc.xilinx.com (unknown-178-102.xilinx.com [149.199.178.102]) by newsgate.xilinx.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA29362 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 14:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fedex.xilinx.com (fedex [149.199.178.143]) by renfield.xbc.xilinx.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA20511 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 15:06:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xilinx.com ([149.199.173.47]) by fedex.xilinx.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GB8IMD00.K5I for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 15:06:13 -0600 Message-ID: <3ACA3B29.BBFF54CB@xilinx.com> Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 15:05:45 -0600 From: "Linda Echo-Hawk" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: golden parser Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can you tell me if you plan to enhance the golden parser to accept the longer filenames (20 character basename plus .ibs) supported in Version 3.2? I just downloaded the latest ibischk3 (V3.2.7) but it complains about name lengths longer than 12. Thanks -- Linda Echo-Hawk From owner-ibis Tue Apr 3 15:32:10 2001 Received: from relay1.wv.mentorg.com (relay1.mentorg.com [192.94.38.42]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f33MW7529376 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 15:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com by relay1.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40F) id PAA14006; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 15:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mentor.com (bob.wv.mentorg.com [147.34.83.63]) by svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id H6NA08C0; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 15:31:12 -0700 Sender: bobr@relay1.mentorg.com Message-ID: <3ACA4F2F.20886E8A@mentor.com> Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 15:31:11 -0700 From: Bob Ross X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linda Echo-Hawk CC: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: golden parser References: <3ACA3B29.BBFF54CB@xilinx.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Linda: If the file is given [IBIS Ver] 3.2 no errors should be issued. However, if the file is given [IBIS Ver] 2.1 or below, you will get the name length error. IBIS Version 2.1 files still have the 12 character total name length restriction. Bob Ross Mentor Graphics Linda Echo-Hawk wrote: > > Can you tell me if you plan to enhance the golden parser to accept the > longer filenames (20 character basename plus .ibs) supported in Version > 3.2? I just downloaded the latest ibischk3 (V3.2.7) but it complains > about name lengths longer than 12. > > Thanks -- > Linda Echo-Hawk From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 06:34:47 2001 Received: from ns02.newbridge.com (ns02.newbridge.com [192.75.23.75]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f34DYi503828 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 06:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 7271 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2001 13:32:36 -0000 Received: from portal1.newbridge.com (HELO kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com) (192.75.23.76) by ns02.newbridge.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2001 13:32:36 -0000 Received: from kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com by kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com with ESMTP for ibis-users@vhdl.org; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:33:29 -0400 Received: from newbridge.com ([138.120.118.113]) by kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA912 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:33:28 -0400 Message-Id: <3ACB22A9.5ABA9A54@newbridge.com> Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 08:33:29 -0500 From: "DORIN OPREA" Organization: Newbridge Networks Corporation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "IBIS User Group (E-mail)" Subject: IBIS for analog X-Priority: 2 (High) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6D09AAEA2BDE2352A5957C03" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6D09AAEA2BDE2352A5957C03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, The circuit to simulate is: a differential buffer driving a transformer. The model we received for the IC device is an IBIS model. The question is: Can IBIS model be used within HSPICE for analog simulation ? Thanks, Dorin --------------6D09AAEA2BDE2352A5957C03 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="doprea.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Dorin Oprea Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="doprea.vcf" begin:vcard n:Oprea;Dorin tel;fax:613 - 599 3642 tel;work:613 - 784 2388 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://home.ca.newbridge.com/kan/ org:Alactel CID;PI adr:;;600 March Road;Kanata;Ontario;K2K 2E6;Canada version:2.1 email;internet:dorin.oprea@alcatel.com title:SI/EMC Engineer fn:Dorin end:vcard --------------6D09AAEA2BDE2352A5957C03-- From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 07:02:18 2001 Received: from ns02.newbridge.com (ns02.newbridge.com [192.75.23.75]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f34E2F503971 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9070 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2001 14:00:07 -0000 Received: from portal1.newbridge.com (HELO kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com) (192.75.23.76) by ns02.newbridge.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2001 14:00:07 -0000 Received: from kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com by kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com with ESMTP for ibis-users@eda.org; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:59:20 -0400 Received: from cid.alcatel.com ([138.120.63.177]) by kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA211B for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:59:19 -0400 Sender: "Jason Leung" Message-Id: <3ACB28A0.C611CE4E@cid.alcatel.com> Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 09:58:56 -0400 From: Jason Leung Organization: Alcatel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ibis-users@eda.org" Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------A8693C4B0126D46FA00D5876" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A8693C4B0126D46FA00D5876 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone: I am trying to verify a IBIS model which consists of a zero rise time for the driver: | variable typ min max dV/dt_r 0/0 0/0 0/0 dV/dt_f 2.0448/0.4029n 1.8546/0.4176n 2.1792/0.4102n R_load = 50.0000 My question is :does anyone know how the IBIS translator going to handle this situation?? thanks alot Best Regards Jason Leung --------------A8693C4B0126D46FA00D5876 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="jleung.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Jason Leung Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="jleung.vcf" begin:vcard n:Leung;Jason tel;fax:613-5993642 tel;work:613-7844425 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Alcatel CID;EMC ENGINEERING adr:;;600 March Road;Kanata;Ontario;K2K 2E6;CANADA version:2.1 email;internet:jleung@cid.alcatel.com title:SI/EMC ENGINEER x-mozilla-cpt:;168 fn:Jason Leung end:vcard --------------A8693C4B0126D46FA00D5876-- From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 07:22:30 2001 Received: from paloalto-smrly2.gtei.net (paloalto-smrly2.gtei.net [131.119.246.6]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f34EMR504073 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fairchild-cp.fairchildsemi.com (fairchild-cp.fairchildsemi.com [192.233.132.79]) by paloalto-smrly2.gtei.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 377DD495D for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 14:21:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: FROM fairchildsemi.com BY hqnttest01.fairchildsemi.com ; Wed Apr 04 10:21:23 2001 -0400 Received: from notes.fairchildsemi.com by fairchildsemi.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA16656; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 10:18:28 -0400 Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model To: "ibis-users@eda.org" From: Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 10:18:26 -0400 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on SPNOTES01/Corporate/FSC(Release 5.0.6a |January 17, 2001) at 04/04/2001 10:18:47 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jason, I'm not sure what translator you are using but the HSPICE translator will by default use ramp data for determining switching characteristics in DC and transient analysis. You can specify that the translator use the rising and falling waveform data instead. See Chapter 18 of the Avanti HSPICE User's Manual. Adam Tambone Fairchild Semiconductor Hi everyone: I am trying to verify a IBIS model which consists of a zero rise time for the driver: | variable typ min max dV/dt_r 0/0 0/0 0/0 dV/dt_f 2.0448/0.4029n 1.8546/0.4176n 2.1792/0.4102n R_load = 50.0000 My question is :does anyone know how the IBIS translator going to handle this situation?? thanks alot Best Regards Jason Leung From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 07:33:20 2001 Received: from pop.nwlink.com (pop.nwlink.com [209.20.130.39]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f34EXH504119 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ip210.c246.blk1.bel.nwlink.com (ip210.c246.blk1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.246.210]) by pop.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA16227; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.hyperlynx.com by ip210.c246.blk1.bel.nwlink.com via smtpd (for pop.nwlink.com [209.20.130.39]) with SMTP; 4 Apr 2001 14:32:51 UT Received: from [192.168.149.1] (hlgw.hyperlynx.com [192.168.149.1]) by mail (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) with SMTP id HAA16921; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:32:51 -0700 Message-ID: <019401c0bd14$2dfffa80$9594a8c0@hyperlynx.com> From: "Matthew Flora" To: "Jason Leung" , Received: from no.name.available by [192.168.149.1] via smtpd (for mail.hyperlynx.com [192.168.149.2]) with SMTP; 4 Apr 2001 14:32:51 UT References: <3ACB28A0.C611CE4E@cid.alcatel.com> Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:33:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Dear Jason Leung, What IBIS translator are you referring to? The IBIS Golden Parser (IBISCHK3 ver 3.2.7) will flag the model as invalid. Best regards, Matthew Flora ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Leung" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 6:58 AM Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model > Hi everyone: > I am trying to verify a IBIS model which consists of a zero rise time > for the driver: > | variable typ min max > dV/dt_r 0/0 0/0 0/0 > dV/dt_f 2.0448/0.4029n 1.8546/0.4176n 2.1792/0.4102n > R_load = 50.0000 > > My question is :does anyone know how the IBIS translator going to handle > this situation?? > thanks alot > Best Regards > Jason Leung > From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 07:41:07 2001 Received: from ausxc10.us.dell.com (ausxc10.us.dell.com [143.166.98.229]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f34Ef4504154 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ausxc10.us.dell.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <2F2CKPP9>; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:34:24 -0500 Message-ID: From: Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com To: Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com, ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: zero risetime in the IBIS model Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:36:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01C0BD14.A378C350" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0BD14.A378C350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jason, Even if your simulator's translator doesn't complain, your simulator may go nuts and give VERY "interesting" results. Go back to your supplier and insist that the ramp data match the VT data. Aubrey Sparkman Signal Integrity Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com (512) 723-3592 > -----Original Message----- > From: Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com > [mailto:Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 9:18 AM > To: ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model > > > Jason, > > I'm not sure what translator you are using but the > HSPICE translator > will by default use ramp data for determining switching > characteristics in > DC and transient analysis. You can specify that the > translator use the > rising and falling waveform data instead. See Chapter 18 of > the Avanti > HSPICE User's Manual. > > Adam Tambone > Fairchild Semiconductor > > > > Hi everyone: > I am trying to verify a IBIS model which consists of a zero rise time > for the driver: > | variable typ min max > dV/dt_r 0/0 0/0 0/0 > dV/dt_f 2.0448/0.4029n 1.8546/0.4176n > 2.1792/0.4102n > R_load = 50.0000 > > My question is :does anyone know how the IBIS translator > going to handle > this situation?? > thanks alot > Best Regards > Jason Leung > > ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0BD14.A378C350 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Sparkman, Aubrey.vcf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Sparkman, Aubrey.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Sparkman;Aubrey FN:Sparkman, Aubrey EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com REV:19990728T212924Z END:VCARD ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0BD14.A378C350-- From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 08:13:44 2001 Received: from ns02.newbridge.com (ns02.newbridge.com [192.75.23.75]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f34FDg504351 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 13716 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2001 15:11:34 -0000 Received: from portal1.newbridge.com (HELO kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com) (192.75.23.76) by ns02.newbridge.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2001 15:11:34 -0000 Received: from kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com by kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com with ESMTP for ibis-users@eda.org; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 11:10:39 -0400 Received: from cid.alcatel.com ([138.120.63.177]) by kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA61BC; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 11:10:37 -0400 Sender: "Jason Leung" Message-Id: <3ACB3958.FFBE2FED@cid.alcatel.com> Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 11:10:16 -0400 From: Jason Leung Organization: Alcatel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Flora CC: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model References: <3ACB28A0.C611CE4E@cid.alcatel.com> <019401c0bd14$2dfffa80$9594a8c0@hyperlynx.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------A93CACDF7FD66D5111F80049" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A93CACDF7FD66D5111F80049 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Matthew Flora: Thanks for your comment . I am using IBIS2XTK V5.01 , but the golden Parser doesn't show any error message at the end. Thanks alot Jason Leung Matthew Flora wrote: > Dear Jason Leung, > > What IBIS translator are you referring to? The IBIS Golden Parser (IBISCHK3 > ver 3.2.7) will flag the model as invalid. > > Best regards, > Matthew Flora > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jason Leung" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 6:58 AM > Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model > > > Hi everyone: > > I am trying to verify a IBIS model which consists of a zero rise time > > for the driver: > > | variable typ min max > > dV/dt_r 0/0 0/0 0/0 > > dV/dt_f 2.0448/0.4029n 1.8546/0.4176n 2.1792/0.4102n > > R_load = 50.0000 > > > > My question is :does anyone know how the IBIS translator going to handle > > this situation?? > > thanks alot > > Best Regards > > Jason Leung > > --------------A93CACDF7FD66D5111F80049 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="jleung.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Jason Leung Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="jleung.vcf" begin:vcard n:Leung;Jason tel;fax:613-5993642 tel;work:613-7844425 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Alcatel CID;EMC ENGINEERING adr:;;600 March Road;Kanata;Ontario;K2K 2E6;CANADA version:2.1 email;internet:jleung@cid.alcatel.com title:SI/EMC ENGINEER x-mozilla-cpt:;168 fn:Jason Leung end:vcard --------------A93CACDF7FD66D5111F80049-- From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 08:34:34 2001 Received: from relay1.wv.mentorg.com (relay1.mentorg.com [192.94.38.42]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f34FYV504488 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com by relay1.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40F) id IAA10964; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:34:00 -0700 Message-ID: <2179BC5B6583D311B44700508B44146901BAD15D@svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com> From: "Dunbar, Tony" To: "'ibis-users@eda.org'" Subject: RE: zero risetime in the IBIS model Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:33:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jason, One subtle point here is whether, or not, the [Model] that has this dV/dt_r parameter also has waveform tables. If it does, the [Ramp] parameters should be ignored by the simulator, anyway. Neverthless, as has been suggested already, I would also strongly encourage you to throw the model back at the vendor that supplied it. This sort of clumsy or outright bad modeling continues in part, I believe, because we, as consumers, tweak this and change that without letting our suppliers know they are producing garbage. Sorry to rant on, but this is a pet subject of mine because it wastes too much of my time and WAY TOO MUCH of my customers' time. If it was a part for my car brakes that didn't quite fit, what would I do? Closer to the point, if it was a VHDL model that wasn't quite right and the ASIC didn't work, what would you and your management do. Signed, Mr. Angry (Tony Angry, that is!) -----Original Message----- From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 AM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model Hi everyone: I am trying to verify a IBIS model which consists of a zero rise time for the driver: | variable typ min max dV/dt_r 0/0 0/0 0/0 dV/dt_f 2.0448/0.4029n 1.8546/0.4176n 2.1792/0.4102n R_load = 50.0000 My question is :does anyone know how the IBIS translator going to handle this situation?? thanks alot Best Regards Jason Leung From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 08:43:13 2001 Received: from ns02.newbridge.com (ns02.newbridge.com [192.75.23.75]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f34FhA504567 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15288 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2001 15:41:02 -0000 Received: from portal1.newbridge.com (HELO kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com) (192.75.23.76) by ns02.newbridge.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2001 15:41:02 -0000 Received: from kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com by kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com with ESMTP for ibis-users@eda.org; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 11:36:34 -0400 Received: from cid.alcatel.com ([138.120.63.177]) by kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA294; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 11:36:33 -0400 Sender: "Jason Leung" Message-Id: <3ACB3F6B.5D7400EF@cid.alcatel.com> Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 11:36:11 -0400 From: Jason Leung Organization: Alcatel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Aubrey_Sparkman@dell.com CC: Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com, ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------079603B827B8556BAD7B9C7C" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------079603B827B8556BAD7B9C7C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aubrey Sparkman: So even though the translator doesn't complain about the zero rise time in the driver model, the translator will go "nuts" ehh? So the waveform come after the simulation will have no meaning ehh? what do you mean by" ramp data match the VT data"? thanks alot Jason Leung > Jason, > Even if your simulator's translator doesn't complain, your simulator may go > nuts and give VERY "interesting" results. Go back to your supplier and > insist that the ramp data match the VT data. > > Aubrey Sparkman > Signal Integrity > Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com > (512) 723-3592 > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com > > [mailto:Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 9:18 AM > > To: ibis-users@eda.org > > Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model > > > > > > Jason, > > > > I'm not sure what translator you are using but the > > HSPICE translator > > will by default use ramp data for determining switching > > characteristics in > > DC and transient analysis. You can specify that the > > translator use the > > rising and falling waveform data instead. See Chapter 18 of > > the Avanti > > HSPICE User's Manual. > > > > Adam Tambone > > Fairchild Semiconductor > > > > > > > > Hi everyone: > > I am trying to verify a IBIS model which consists of a zero rise time > > for the driver: > > | variable typ min max > > dV/dt_r 0/0 0/0 0/0 > > dV/dt_f 2.0448/0.4029n 1.8546/0.4176n > > 2.1792/0.4102n > > R_load = 50.0000 > > > > My question is :does anyone know how the IBIS translator > > going to handle > > this situation?? > > thanks alot > > Best Regards > > Jason Leung > > > > --------------079603B827B8556BAD7B9C7C Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="jleung.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Jason Leung Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="jleung.vcf" begin:vcard n:Leung;Jason tel;fax:613-5993642 tel;work:613-7844425 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Alcatel CID;EMC ENGINEERING adr:;;600 March Road;Kanata;Ontario;K2K 2E6;CANADA version:2.1 email;internet:jleung@cid.alcatel.com title:SI/EMC ENGINEER x-mozilla-cpt:;168 fn:Jason Leung end:vcard --------------079603B827B8556BAD7B9C7C-- From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 09:02:42 2001 Received: from zcamail03.zca.compaq.com (zcamail03.zca.compaq.com [161.114.32.103]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f34G2d504664 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by zcamail03.zca.compaq.com (Postfix, from userid 12345) id F385EEA6; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exctay-gh03.tay.cpqcorp.net (exctay-gh03.tay.cpqcorp.net [16.103.129.53]) by zcamail03.zca.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1F53F10 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by exctay-gh03.tay.cpqcorp.net with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2652.78) id ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:02:08 -0400 Message-ID: <212CC57E84B8D111AD780000F84AA0490C713DFB@mroexc2.tay.cpqcorp.net> From: "Ingraham, Andrew" To: "'ibis-users@eda.org'" Subject: RE: zero risetime in the IBIS model Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:02:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2652.78) Content-Type: text/plain > One subtle point here is whether, or not, the [Model] that has this > dV/dt_r > parameter also has waveform tables. If it does, the [Ramp] parameters > should > be ignored by the simulator, anyway. Not all simulators use the [Rising Waveform] and [Falling Waveform] data if it's there. That is one reason why IBIS requires the [Ramp] data even if the waveforms are also provided. Even if the simulator does use the waveform tables, is it prohibited from looking at the [Ramp] data? Conceivably, its algorithms might use the [Ramp] data, either to enhance its accuracy somehow, or as an internal "sanity check" that the tables and [Ramp] data are consistent. Presumably, the 0/0 values mean the person who created the IBIS data sheet, didn't finish. There may be valid reasons for doing that; perhaps this is a preliminary model and its customers know and understand that. I won't argue that it needs to be fixed, but I don't know the circumstances here. In the interim, personally I would want to avoid 0/0, since it might be mathematically problematic, with unpredictable results. If I were you, I'd substitute something like 1/1, which I think should be less likely to cause an unexpected outcome. Either the simulator doesn't use it, or you should see very slow rising edges in your simulations which should stand out and tell you that this model is incomplete for those edges. That is better than the simulator blowing its brain to bits and scribbling all over your disk or something. Andy From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 09:15:39 2001 Received: from camcolo2-smrly1.gtei.net (camcolo2-smrly1.gtei.net [128.11.173.4]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f34GFa504767 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:15:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fairchild-cp.fairchildsemi.com (fairchild-cp.fairchildsemi.com [192.233.132.79]) by camcolo2-smrly1.gtei.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 6EE77653C for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 16:15:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: FROM fairchildsemi.com BY hqnttest01.fairchildsemi.com ; Wed Apr 04 12:14:44 2001 -0400 Received: from notes.fairchildsemi.com by fairchildsemi.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA01053; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:11:48 -0400 Subject: RE: zero risetime in the IBIS model To: "'ibis-users@eda.org'" From: Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:11:46 -0400 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on SPNOTES01/Corporate/FSC(Release 5.0.6a |January 17, 2001) at 04/04/2001 12:12:07 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jason, If V/t data is included in the IBIS datasheet a solution might be to determine the slope of the line defined by the 20% and 80% points of the V/t waveform and use this value for the ramp parameter of interest. As previously mentioned you should not have to do this 'fix'. Adam Tambone From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 09:21:01 2001 Received: from mailgate2.Cadence.COM (mailgate2.Cadence.COM [158.140.2.31]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f34GKw504805 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gda.Cadence.COM (gda.Cadence.COM [158.140.106.10]) by mailgate2.Cadence.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10490; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cadence.com (d158140105215 [158.140.105.215]) by gda.Cadence.COM (8.10.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id f34GKKV05005; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3ACB49C2.71592121@cadence.com> Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 12:20:18 -0400 From: Ian Dodd Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Ingraham, Andrew" CC: "'ibis-users@eda.org'" Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model References: <212CC57E84B8D111AD780000F84AA0490C713DFB@mroexc2.tay.cpqcorp.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Received: By mailgate2.Cadence.COM as JAA10490 at Wed Apr 4 09:20:22 2001 Andy, I think you have a pretty good handle on what is likely to happen. I can expand a little ... Some environments use the Ramp data to make some basic decisions about how to set up the simulations. e.g. which driver on a bi-directional net is likely to cause the greatest amount of crosstalk. The infinite edge rate in this case could cause unintended results even before it gets to the simulator. Ian Dodd "Ingraham, Andrew" wrote: > > > One subtle point here is whether, or not, the [Model] that has this > > dV/dt_r > > parameter also has waveform tables. If it does, the [Ramp] parameters > > should > > be ignored by the simulator, anyway. > > Not all simulators use the [Rising Waveform] and [Falling Waveform] data if > it's there. That is one reason why IBIS requires the [Ramp] data even if > the waveforms are also provided. > > Even if the simulator does use the waveform tables, is it prohibited from > looking at the [Ramp] data? Conceivably, its algorithms might use the > [Ramp] data, either to enhance its accuracy somehow, or as an internal > "sanity check" that the tables and [Ramp] data are consistent. > > Presumably, the 0/0 values mean the person who created the IBIS data sheet, > didn't finish. There may be valid reasons for doing that; perhaps this is a > preliminary model and its customers know and understand that. I won't argue > that it needs to be fixed, but I don't know the circumstances here. > > In the interim, personally I would want to avoid 0/0, since it might be > mathematically problematic, with unpredictable results. If I were you, I'd > substitute something like 1/1, which I think should be less likely to cause > an unexpected outcome. Either the simulator doesn't use it, or you should > see very slow rising edges in your simulations which should stand out and > tell you that this model is incomplete for those edges. That is better than > the simulator blowing its brain to bits and scribbling all over your disk or > something. > > Andy From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 11:47:58 2001 Received: from ausxc08.us.dell.com (ausxc08.us.dell.com [143.166.99.216]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f34Ilu505554 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 11:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ausxc08.us.dell.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <2FJ26N5N>; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 13:45:05 -0500 Message-ID: From: Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com To: jleung@cid.alcatel.com Cc: Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com, ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: zero risetime in the IBIS model Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 13:44:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01C0BD37.5868FBA0" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0BD37.5868FBA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jason, Yes, I have seen a simulator go nuts and produce a very strange meaningless waveform. Problem went away when the [Ramp] data was corrected. ramp data matching the VT data means that they should agree, both come from time-based data, perhaps even the same load. From a purist point of view, I'm not an IBIS expert and I don't want to change the data my supplier gives me. But if your boss wants results NOW with your best GUESS, as another suggested, you can build your own Ramp data from the V/T data. Use the Rising Waveform for the dV/dt_r (R_fixture to ground if there are two). Use the Falling Waveform for the dV/dt_f (R_fixture to V_fixtuer if there are two). dV=0.6*(Vmax-Vmin) dt_x is the difference in time between the 20% and 80% voltage points. Good Luck! Aubrey Sparkman Signal Integrity Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com (512) 723-3592 > -----Original Message----- > From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 10:36 AM > To: Aubrey_Sparkman@exchange.dell.com > Cc: Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com; ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model > > > Hi Aubrey Sparkman: > So even though the translator doesn't complain about the zero > rise time in the > driver model, the translator will go "nuts" ehh? So the > waveform come after > the simulation will have no meaning ehh? > what do you mean by" ramp data match the VT data"? > thanks alot > Jason Leung > > > > Jason, > > Even if your simulator's translator doesn't complain, your > simulator may go > > nuts and give VERY "interesting" results. Go back to your > supplier and > > insist that the ramp data match the VT data. > > > > Aubrey Sparkman > > Signal Integrity > > Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com > > (512) 723-3592 > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com > > > [mailto:Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com] > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 9:18 AM > > > To: ibis-users@eda.org > > > Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model > > > > > > > > > Jason, > > > > > > I'm not sure what translator you are using but the > > > HSPICE translator > > > will by default use ramp data for determining switching > > > characteristics in > > > DC and transient analysis. You can specify that the > > > translator use the > > > rising and falling waveform data instead. See Chapter 18 of > > > the Avanti > > > HSPICE User's Manual. > > > > > > Adam Tambone > > > Fairchild Semiconductor > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone: > > > I am trying to verify a IBIS model which consists of a > zero rise time > > > for the driver: > > > | variable typ min max > > > dV/dt_r 0/0 0/0 0/0 > > > dV/dt_f 2.0448/0.4029n 1.8546/0.4176n > > > 2.1792/0.4102n > > > R_load = 50.0000 > > > > > > My question is :does anyone know how the IBIS translator > > > going to handle > > > this situation?? > > > thanks alot > > > Best Regards > > > Jason Leung > > > > > > > ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0BD37.5868FBA0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Sparkman, Aubrey.vcf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Sparkman, Aubrey.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Sparkman;Aubrey FN:Sparkman, Aubrey EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com REV:19990728T212924Z END:VCARD ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0BD37.5868FBA0-- From owner-ibis Thu Apr 5 02:01:55 2001 Received: from thesys.de (s01.thesys.de [193.141.53.1]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3591b510887 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 02:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thesys.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thesys.de (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03534 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 11:01:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from thesys.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thesys.de (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01705 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:30:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from thesys.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thesys.de (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01178 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:20:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from thesys.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thesys.de (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01083 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:18:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from s171.thesys.de (s171 [10.49.10.171]) by thesys.de (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22013 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 09:46:36 +0200 (MET DST) Posted-Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 09:46:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from xfab.com ([10.49.10.4]) by s171.thesys.de (Netscape Messaging Server 3.01) with ESMTP id AAA4710 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 09:42:27 +0200 Sender: cornelia@thesys.de Message-ID: <3ACC1EE4.41895156@xfab.com> Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 09:29:40 +0200 From: Cornelia Foss Organization: XFAB Semiconductor Foundries GmbH X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.7 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: unsubscribe Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------51DDB5F65BCEFB0A7A1C314F" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------51DDB5F65BCEFB0A7A1C314F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit unsubscribe --------------51DDB5F65BCEFB0A7A1C314F Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=iso-8859-15; name="Cornelia.Foss.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Cornelia Foss Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Cornelia.Foss.vcf" begin:vcard n:Foss;Cornelia x-mozilla-html:TRUE org:XFAB Semiconductor Foundries GmbH adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:Cornelia.Foss@xfab.com title:Design Technology x-mozilla-cpt:;-27568 fn:Cornelia.Foss@xfab.com end:vcard --------------51DDB5F65BCEFB0A7A1C314F-- From owner-ibis Thu Apr 5 04:08:47 2001 Received: from kelly.sercomtel.com.br (kelly.sercomtel.com.br [200.250.19.8]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f35B8g511603 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 04:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from verde.onda.com.br (pophost.onda.com.br [200.250.19.90]) by kelly.sercomtel.com.br (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29215 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:08:08 -0300 (EST) Received: from superman (ascta004p013.onda.com.br [200.195.214.13]) by verde.onda.com.br (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA05211 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:08:13 -0300 (EST) Message-ID: <004201c0bdc0$79da6420$0dd6c3c8@superman> From: "Rafael Cancellier" To: Subject: unsubscribe Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:06:02 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 unsubscribe From owner-ibis Thu Apr 5 05:19:17 2001 Received: from mink.ecitele.com (mink.ecitele.com [147.234.1.100]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f35CJ8511893; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 05:19:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from olive.ecitele.com (ilsmtp04.ecitele.com [147.234.8.125]) by mink.ecitele.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA22789; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 14:16:15 +0200 (IST) Subject: IBIS connector modeling To: ibis-users@eda.org, ibis-info@eda.org Cc: Yossi.Makai@ecitele.com, Daniel.Adar@ecitele.com, Naftali.Refaeli@ecitele.com X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.2b (Intl) 16 December 1999 Message-ID: From: Larry.Odess@ecitele.com Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 14:18:39 +0200 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on ILSMTP04/ECI Telecom(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 04/05/2001 02:18:37 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii We at ECI are interested in getting information from users who have generated IBIS connector models. (The "Connector Info" button at the http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis.htm site gave us gibberish). Please send me information, references, and/or contact information on this subject. From owner-ibis Thu Apr 5 13:11:07 2001 Received: from starrunner.starcon.com (mailhub1.stargate.ca [207.230.244.3]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f35KB4513955 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 13:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Rick (h21-lmi.att-h.starcon.com [216.13.185.21]) by starrunner.starcon.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 546-34140U100L100S0) with SMTP id AAA212 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 13:10:26 -0700 Message-ID: <001c01c0be0c$8a8c2820$5d00a8c0@lmint.com> From: "Rick McBain" To: References: <004201c0bdc0$79da6420$0dd6c3c8@superman> Subject: unsubscribe Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 13:11:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From owner-ibis Thu Apr 5 17:49:26 2001 Received: from relay1.wv.mentorg.com (relay1.mentorg.com [192.94.38.42]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f360nM515071; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com by relay1.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40F) id RAA27511; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:48:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mentor.com (bob.wv.mentorg.com [147.34.83.63]) by svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id H6NBACHF; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:48:32 -0700 Sender: bobr@relay1.mentorg.com Message-ID: <3ACD1260.3C79A015@mentor.com> Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 17:48:32 -0700 From: Bob Ross X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry.Odess@ecitele.com CC: ibis-users@eda.org, ibis-info@eda.org, Yossi.Makai@ecitele.com, Daniel.Adar@ecitele.com, Naftali.Refaeli@ecitele.com Subject: Re: IBIS connector modeling References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Larry: The IBIS Connector Specification is still being developed. There are no official IBIS models or users at this time. You would need to contact EDA Vendors directly regarding their connector modeling solutions. Best Regards, Bob Ross Mentor Graphics Larry.Odess@ecitele.com wrote: > > We at ECI are interested in getting information from users who have > generated IBIS connector models. > (The "Connector Info" button at the http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis.htm > site gave us gibberish). > Please send me information, references, and/or contact information on this > subject. From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 06:19:27 2001 Received: from ns02.newbridge.com (ns02.newbridge.com [192.75.23.75]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f39DJO506875 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 06:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 18665 invoked from network); 9 Apr 2001 13:16:06 -0000 Received: from portal1.newbridge.com (HELO kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com) (192.75.23.76) by ns02.newbridge.com with SMTP; 9 Apr 2001 13:16:06 -0000 Received: from kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com by kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com with ESMTP for ibis-users@eda.org; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:14:13 -0400 Received: from cid.alcatel.com ([138.120.63.177]) by kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA2AE2; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:14:11 -0400 Sender: "Jason Leung" Message-Id: <3AD1B598.C7F5B835@cid.alcatel.com> Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 09:14:00 -0400 From: Jason Leung Organization: Alcatel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ibis-users@eda.org" Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------5FF4C4A7C47C61A39089B25D" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5FF4C4A7C47C61A39089B25D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all: Morning! I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output impedance in XNS. My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a driver? AND how did you achieve that? Thanks very much for your comment! Jason leung --------------5FF4C4A7C47C61A39089B25D Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="jleung.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Jason Leung Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="jleung.vcf" begin:vcard n:Leung;Jason tel;fax:613-5993642 tel;work:613-7844425 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Alcatel CID;EMC ENGINEERING adr:;;600 March Road;Kanata;Ontario;K2K 2E6;CANADA version:2.1 email;internet:jleung@cid.alcatel.com title:SI/EMC ENGINEER x-mozilla-cpt:;168 fn:Jason Leung end:vcard --------------5FF4C4A7C47C61A39089B25D-- From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 07:59:23 2001 Received: from hebe.or.intel.com (jffdns02.or.intel.com [134.134.248.4]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f39ExK507431 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 07:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SMTP (orsmsxvs01-1.jf.intel.com [192.168.65.200]) by hebe.or.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.35 2001/02/12 09:03:45 smothers Exp $) with SMTP id OAA25024 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 14:58:53 GMT Received: from orsmsx28.jf.intel.com ([192.168.70.28]) by 192.168.70.200 (Norton AntiVirus for Internet Email Gateways 1.0) ; Mon, 09 Apr 2001 14:58:52 0000 (GMT) Received: by orsmsx28.jf.intel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2KPD6L8M>; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 07:58:50 -0700 Message-ID: <10C8636AE359D4119118009027AE9987051553AF@FMSMSX34> From: "Muranyi, Arpad" To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: output impedance of a driver Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 07:58:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jason, The DC impedance can be found by dividing V/I on the IV curve of the buffer. You will find that you get a different value at practically any of the voltages due to the non linear shape of the IV curve. Plus, the process variation of a chip can give you a variation on the order of 2-3x. So finding the impedance and matching the T-line to it is like shooting at a moving target. The reason I said DC impedance above is because the capacitive components of the buffer will also alter the impedance of the buffer a higher frequencies. Arpad Muranyi Intel Corporation ================================================================ -----Original Message----- From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 6:14 AM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver Hi all: Morning! I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output impedance in XNS. My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a driver? AND how did you achieve that? Thanks very much for your comment! Jason leung From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 09:16:48 2001 Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f39GGj507713 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 89404 invoked by alias); 9 Apr 2001 16:16:01 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-ibis-users@eda.org@fixme Received: (qmail 89385 invoked by uid 0); 9 Apr 2001 16:16:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO vasthorizons.com) (63.225.95.1) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 9 Apr 2001 16:16:01 -0000 Message-ID: <3AD1E041.88040233@vasthorizons.com> Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 09:16:01 -0700 From: Scott McMorrow Organization: SiQual X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Leung CC: "ibis-users@eda.org" Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver References: <3AD1B598.C7F5B835@cid.alcatel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jason, If the ibis model has been extracted correctly, then the Ramp data will tell you what the saturated output impedance is. The IBIS V/I curves give you the impedance of an output buffer at any voltage. I usually use 1 volts as a good place to measure impedance, since it is in the linear portion of the buffer curve. For the pullup and pulldown curve, go to the 1V row and read off the current. Since R=V/I, the output channel resistance can be calculated. For example, if at 1 Volt the current is 35mA, then the output impedance is 28.57 ohms. regards, scott -- Scott McMorrow Principal Engineer SiQual, Signal Quality Engineering 18735 SW Boones Ferry Road Tualatin, OR 97062-3090 (503) 885-1231 http://www.siqual.com Jason Leung wrote: > Hi all: > Morning! > I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can > match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. > The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate > the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their > rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output > impedance in XNS. > My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a > driver? AND how did you achieve that? > > Thanks very much for your comment! > Jason leung From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 09:43:07 2001 Received: from ns02.newbridge.com (ns02.newbridge.com [192.75.23.75]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f39Gh4507911 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3283 invoked from network); 9 Apr 2001 16:40:50 -0000 Received: from portal1.newbridge.com (HELO kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com) (192.75.23.76) by ns02.newbridge.com with SMTP; 9 Apr 2001 16:40:50 -0000 Received: from kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com by kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com with ESMTP for ibis-users@eda.org; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:41:23 -0400 Received: from cid.alcatel.com ([138.120.63.177]) by kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAABA8; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:41:22 -0400 Sender: "Jason Leung" Message-Id: <3AD1E627.F7650FCC@cid.alcatel.com> Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 12:41:12 -0400 From: Jason Leung Organization: Alcatel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Scott McMorrow CC: "ibis-users@eda.org" Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver References: <3AD1B598.C7F5B835@cid.alcatel.com> <3AD1E041.88040233@vasthorizons.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3665D0E1E7BEB8B8DB284F45" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3665D0E1E7BEB8B8DB284F45 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Scott McMorrow : Thanks very much for your advice! So if we wanted to find the output impedance for the driver ,we just have to go to 1V row and then read off the corresponding current value eh? Should I do that on the Pull up curve or the pull down curve? thanks Regards Jason Leung > Jason, > > If the ibis model has been extracted correctly, then the Ramp data > will tell you what the saturated output impedance is. > > The IBIS V/I curves give you the impedance of an output buffer > at any voltage. I usually use 1 volts as a good place to measure > impedance, since it is in the linear portion of the buffer curve. > For the pullup and pulldown curve, go to the 1V row and read > off the current. Since R=V/I, the output channel resistance can > be calculated. > > For example, if at 1 Volt the current is 35mA, then the > output impedance is 28.57 ohms. > > regards, > > scott > > -- > Scott McMorrow > Principal Engineer > SiQual, Signal Quality Engineering > 18735 SW Boones Ferry Road > Tualatin, OR 97062-3090 > (503) 885-1231 > http://www.siqual.com > > Jason Leung wrote: > > > Hi all: > > Morning! > > I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can > > match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. > > The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate > > the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their > > rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output > > impedance in XNS. > > My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a > > driver? AND how did you achieve that? > > > > Thanks very much for your comment! > > Jason leung --------------3665D0E1E7BEB8B8DB284F45 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="jleung.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Jason Leung Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="jleung.vcf" begin:vcard n:Leung;Jason tel;fax:613-5993642 tel;work:613-7844425 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Alcatel CID;EMC ENGINEERING adr:;;600 March Road;Kanata;Ontario;K2K 2E6;CANADA version:2.1 email;internet:jleung@cid.alcatel.com title:SI/EMC ENGINEER x-mozilla-cpt:;168 fn:Jason Leung end:vcard --------------3665D0E1E7BEB8B8DB284F45-- From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 09:48:46 2001 Received: from relay1.wv.mentorg.com (relay1.mentorg.com [192.94.38.42]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f39Gmh507934 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com by relay1.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40F) id JAA10366; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2N9S0N1Q>; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:48:09 -0700 Message-ID: <2179BC5B6583D311B44700508B4414690468D19C@svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com> From: "Dagostino, Tom" To: "'Jason Leung'" , Scott McMorrow Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: output impedance of a driver Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:48:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" If you do both you will find there is usually a difference in pullup and pulldown impedance. Makes the design job more interesting. What trade-off are you going to make? Tom Dagostino IBIS and Tau Modeling Manager SDD Mentor Graphics Corp. 503-685-1613 tom_dagostino@mentor.com -----Original Message----- From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 9:41 AM To: Scott McMorrow Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver Hi Scott McMorrow : Thanks very much for your advice! So if we wanted to find the output impedance for the driver ,we just have to go to 1V row and then read off the corresponding current value eh? Should I do that on the Pull up curve or the pull down curve? thanks Regards Jason Leung > Jason, > > If the ibis model has been extracted correctly, then the Ramp data > will tell you what the saturated output impedance is. > > The IBIS V/I curves give you the impedance of an output buffer > at any voltage. I usually use 1 volts as a good place to measure > impedance, since it is in the linear portion of the buffer curve. > For the pullup and pulldown curve, go to the 1V row and read > off the current. Since R=V/I, the output channel resistance can > be calculated. > > For example, if at 1 Volt the current is 35mA, then the > output impedance is 28.57 ohms. > > regards, > > scott > > -- > Scott McMorrow > Principal Engineer > SiQual, Signal Quality Engineering > 18735 SW Boones Ferry Road > Tualatin, OR 97062-3090 > (503) 885-1231 > http://www.siqual.com > > Jason Leung wrote: > > > Hi all: > > Morning! > > I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can > > match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. > > The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate > > the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their > > rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output > > impedance in XNS. > > My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a > > driver? AND how did you achieve that? > > > > Thanks very much for your comment! > > Jason leung From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 11:20:51 2001 Received: from ns02.newbridge.com (ns02.newbridge.com [192.75.23.75]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f39IKm508303 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 11:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9932 invoked from network); 9 Apr 2001 18:18:31 -0000 Received: from portal1.newbridge.com (HELO kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com) (192.75.23.76) by ns02.newbridge.com with SMTP; 9 Apr 2001 18:18:31 -0000 Received: from kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com by kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com with ESMTP for ibis-users@eda.org; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 14:17:11 -0400 Received: from cid.alcatel.com ([138.120.63.177]) by kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA5EB0; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 14:17:10 -0400 Sender: "Jason Leung" Message-Id: <3AD1FC9D.42781AD@cid.alcatel.com> Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 14:17:01 -0400 From: Jason Leung Organization: Alcatel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Muranyi, Arpad" CC: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver References: <10C8636AE359D4119118009027AE9987051553AF@FMSMSX34> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D1C93CBAB029B90B904CFCF3" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D1C93CBAB029B90B904CFCF3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Muranyi, Arpad: Thanks for your advice! one more question I would like to ask you: because I have been asked from my colleague to use XTK/XNS to find the output impedance of the driver, I know that in the spawn -> VI viewer , we can import the corresponding .wvi curve to observe the waveform. Among all those waveform, you can just pick on one waveform, and then do a delta x and delta y function, then you will be able to find the impedance. However, there are so many curves I have to choose(shunt and high, shunt and low and many many more) , do u know which one I have to choose for an accurate approximation of the output impedance of the driver . The whole point here is , since I know I can find the output impedance of the driver in the IBIS model I also wanted to try and find the output impedance of the driver in the XNS (QUAD) model ,so that I am able to compare what we have before the simulation and after the simulation( i.e. how the XTK/XNS interpret the output impedance of that driver ). thanks alot Jason Leung > Jason, > > The DC impedance can be found by dividing V/I on the IV curve of > the buffer. You will find that you get a different value at > practically any of the voltages due to the non linear shape of > the IV curve. Plus, the process variation of a chip can give > you a variation on the order of 2-3x. So finding the impedance > and matching the T-line to it is like shooting at a moving target. > > The reason I said DC impedance above is because the capacitive > components of the buffer will also alter the impedance of the > buffer a higher frequencies. > > Arpad Muranyi > Intel Corporation > ================================================================ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 6:14 AM > To: ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver > > Hi all: > Morning! > I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can > match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. > The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate > the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their > rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output > impedance in XNS. > My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a > driver? AND how did you achieve that? > > Thanks very much for your comment! > Jason leung --------------D1C93CBAB029B90B904CFCF3 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="jleung.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Jason Leung Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="jleung.vcf" begin:vcard n:Leung;Jason tel;fax:613-5993642 tel;work:613-7844425 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Alcatel CID;EMC ENGINEERING adr:;;600 March Road;Kanata;Ontario;K2K 2E6;CANADA version:2.1 email;internet:jleung@cid.alcatel.com title:SI/EMC ENGINEER x-mozilla-cpt:;168 fn:Jason Leung end:vcard --------------D1C93CBAB029B90B904CFCF3-- From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 12:16:09 2001 Received: from intermailhost.viewlogic.com (intermailhost.viewlogic.com [139.181.6.17]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f39JG6508603 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.viewlogic.com (mailhost.viewlogic.com [139.181.3.35]) by intermailhost.viewlogic.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA17207 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 15:15:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from taurus.camarillo.innoveda.com (taurus.camarillo.innoveda.com [139.181.194.20]) by mailhost.viewlogic.com (8.8.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA16722 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 15:15:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcchrisr (pc-chrisr.camarillo.innoveda.com [139.181.194.170]) by taurus.camarillo.innoveda.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA21299 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:15:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Chris Rokusek" To: Subject: RE: output impedance of a driver Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:16:47 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3AD1FC9D.42781AD@cid.alcatel.com> Jason, The curves shown in the VI viewer are identical (in most cases) to the tables in the IBIS file. You can use the output XTK file directly just as you did with the IBIS file using the following mapping. IBIS XTK ------ ------- Pullup High Pulldown Low POWER_Clamp Shunt GND_Clamp Shunt_Neg However... It is somewhat dangerous to provide only a single static impedance value as others have pointed out due to the large variance over the typical operating range, current state, process variation, and dynamic switching nature. But if you are trying to perform a first-order approximation then you must first decide which voltage range(s) and which state(s) is of the most importance to your application because Z will vary with both state and voltage range. In some sense you should ask your colleague what he will use the Z value for because that will determine which Z value you give him. For instance if he wants to know what voltage will propagate down the TLine during the initial rising edge then you might approximate the Z by connecting two points on the HIGH VI curve in the middle of the operating range. This is poor approximation for at least three reasons: 1) The VI curve may be non-linear, 2) The transition from off to on may be non-linear, 3) The opposing state (LOW) may still be driving simultaneously and turns off non-linearly. Another example is that your colleague may want to use the driver Z to insure that reflections are absorbed. In this case you would need to figure out in which voltage range/state the reflections will occur. If they occur above/below the operating range of the device then the shunt curves (diodes) will come into play... Another methodology would be to create a linear driver (one with VI curves of constant slope) and that is tweaked until its response matches the response of the driver you are trying to approximate. My advice is to instead of providing an impedance, give him waveforms that cover all of the driving/loading cases (TLine/Receivers/Terminators/Process) you are expecting to see. Good luck, Chris Rokusek Innoveda > -----Original Message----- > From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 11:17 AM > To: Muranyi, Arpad > Cc: ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver > > > Hi Muranyi, Arpad: > Thanks for your advice! > one more question I would like to ask you: because I have been asked from > my colleague to use > XTK/XNS to find the output impedance of the driver, I know that in the > spawn -> VI viewer , > we can import the corresponding .wvi curve to observe the waveform. > Among all those waveform, you can just pick on one waveform, and then do a > > delta x and delta y function, then you will be able to find the impedance. > > However, there are so many curves I have to choose(shunt and high, shunt > and low and many > many more) , do u know which one I have to choose for an accurate > approximation of the > output impedance of the driver . > The whole point here is , since I know I can find the output impedance of > the driver in the IBIS model > I also wanted to try and find the output impedance of the driver in the > XNS (QUAD) model ,so that > I am able to compare what we have before the simulation and after the > simulation( i.e. how the XTK/XNS > interpret the output impedance of that driver ). > > thanks alot > Jason Leung > > > > Jason, > > > > The DC impedance can be found by dividing V/I on the IV curve of > > the buffer. You will find that you get a different value at > > practically any of the voltages due to the non linear shape of > > the IV curve. Plus, the process variation of a chip can give > > you a variation on the order of 2-3x. So finding the impedance > > and matching the T-line to it is like shooting at a moving target. > > > > The reason I said DC impedance above is because the capacitive > > components of the buffer will also alter the impedance of the > > buffer a higher frequencies. > > > > Arpad Muranyi > > Intel Corporation > > ================================================================ > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] > > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 6:14 AM > > To: ibis-users@eda.org > > Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver > > > > Hi all: > > Morning! > > I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can > > match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. > > The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate > > the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their > > rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output > > impedance in XNS. > > My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a > > driver? AND how did you achieve that? > > > > Thanks very much for your comment! > > Jason leung > From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 12:51:10 2001 Received: from hypnos.cps.intel.com (hypnos.cps.intel.com [192.198.165.17]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f39Jp7508738 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SMTP (fmsmsxvs04-1.fm.intel.com [132.233.42.204]) by hypnos.cps.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.35 2001/02/12 09:03:45 smothers Exp $) with SMTP id TAA19185 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 19:50:33 GMT Received: from fmsmsx26.fm.intel.com ([132.233.48.26]) by 132.233.48.204 (Norton AntiVirus for Internet Email Gateways 1.0) ; Mon, 09 Apr 2001 19:49:44 0000 (GMT) Received: by fmsmsx26.fm.intel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2TR454JG>; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:49:43 -0700 Message-ID: <10C8636AE359D4119118009027AE9987051553B0@FMSMSX34> From: "Muranyi, Arpad" To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: output impedance of a driver Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 11:56:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" You have to add up all of the curves which are ON and then calculate the impedance. This may consist of a pulldown plus GND_clamp, plus Vcc_clamp if it is driving low, or pullup, and the same two clamps when it is driving high. I hope this helps, Arpad ======================================================== -----Original Message----- From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 11:17 AM To: Muranyi, Arpad Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver Hi Muranyi, Arpad: Thanks for your advice! one more question I would like to ask you: because I have been asked from my colleague to use XTK/XNS to find the output impedance of the driver, I know that in the spawn -> VI viewer , we can import the corresponding .wvi curve to observe the waveform. Among all those waveform, you can just pick on one waveform, and then do a delta x and delta y function, then you will be able to find the impedance. However, there are so many curves I have to choose(shunt and high, shunt and low and many many more) , do u know which one I have to choose for an accurate approximation of the output impedance of the driver . The whole point here is , since I know I can find the output impedance of the driver in the IBIS model I also wanted to try and find the output impedance of the driver in the XNS (QUAD) model ,so that I am able to compare what we have before the simulation and after the simulation( i.e. how the XTK/XNS interpret the output impedance of that driver ). thanks alot Jason Leung > Jason, > > The DC impedance can be found by dividing V/I on the IV curve of > the buffer. You will find that you get a different value at > practically any of the voltages due to the non linear shape of > the IV curve. Plus, the process variation of a chip can give > you a variation on the order of 2-3x. So finding the impedance > and matching the T-line to it is like shooting at a moving target. > > The reason I said DC impedance above is because the capacitive > components of the buffer will also alter the impedance of the > buffer a higher frequencies. > > Arpad Muranyi > Intel Corporation > ================================================================ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 6:14 AM > To: ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver > > Hi all: > Morning! > I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can > match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. > The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate > the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their > rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output > impedance in XNS. > My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a > driver? AND how did you achieve that? > > Thanks very much for your comment! > Jason leung From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 13:08:12 2001 Received: from easystreet01.easystreet.com (easystreet.com [206.26.36.40]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f39K8A508858 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 13:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by easystreet01.easystreet.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f39K7aU01741; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 13:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.eda.org (server.eda.ORG [171.64.101.101]) by easystreet01.easystreet.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f39I6GD25304 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 11:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns02.newbridge.com (ns02.newbridge.com [192.75.23.75]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f39Gh4507911 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3283 invoked from network); 9 Apr 2001 16:40:50 -0000 Received: from portal1.newbridge.com (HELO kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com) (192.75.23.76) by ns02.newbridge.com with SMTP; 9 Apr 2001 16:40:50 -0000 Received: from kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com by kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com with ESMTP for ibis-users@eda.org; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:41:23 -0400 Received: from cid.alcatel.com ([138.120.63.177]) by kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAABA8; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:41:22 -0400 Sender: "Jason Leung" Message-Id: <3AD1E627.F7650FCC@cid.alcatel.com> Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 12:41:12 -0400 From: Jason Leung Organization: Alcatel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Scott McMorrow CC: "ibis-users@eda.org" Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver References: <3AD1B598.C7F5B835@cid.alcatel.com> <3AD1E041.88040233@vasthorizons.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3665D0E1E7BEB8B8DB284F45" Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2185 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3665D0E1E7BEB8B8DB284F45 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Scott McMorrow : Thanks very much for your advice! So if we wanted to find the output impedance for the driver ,we just have to go to 1V row and then read off the corresponding current value eh? Should I do that on the Pull up curve or the pull down curve? thanks Regards Jason Leung > Jason, > > If the ibis model has been extracted correctly, then the Ramp data > will tell you what the saturated output impedance is. > > The IBIS V/I curves give you the impedance of an output buffer > at any voltage. I usually use 1 volts as a good place to measure > impedance, since it is in the linear portion of the buffer curve. > For the pullup and pulldown curve, go to the 1V row and read > off the current. Since R=V/I, the output channel resistance can > be calculated. > > For example, if at 1 Volt the current is 35mA, then the > output impedance is 28.57 ohms. > > regards, > > scott > > -- > Scott McMorrow > Principal Engineer > SiQual, Signal Quality Engineering > 18735 SW Boones Ferry Road > Tualatin, OR 97062-3090 > (503) 885-1231 > http://www.siqual.com > > Jason Leung wrote: > > > Hi all: > > Morning! > > I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can > > match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. > > The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate > > the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their > > rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output > > impedance in XNS. > > My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a > > driver? AND how did you achieve that? > > > > Thanks very much for your comment! > > Jason leung --------------3665D0E1E7BEB8B8DB284F45 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="jleung.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Jason Leung Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="jleung.vcf" begin:vcard n:Leung;Jason tel;fax:613-5993642 tel;work:613-7844425 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Alcatel CID;EMC ENGINEERING adr:;;600 March Road;Kanata;Ontario;K2K 2E6;CANADA version:2.1 email;internet:jleung@cid.alcatel.com title:SI/EMC ENGINEER x-mozilla-cpt:;168 fn:Jason Leung end:vcard --------------3665D0E1E7BEB8B8DB284F45-- From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 13:12:45 2001 Received: from easystreet01.easystreet.com (easystreet.com [206.26.36.40]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f39KCh508870 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 13:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by easystreet01.easystreet.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f39KCDk06804; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 13:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.eda.org (server.eda.ORG [171.64.101.101]) by easystreet01.easystreet.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f39I8gD27781 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 11:08:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f39GGj507713 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 89404 invoked by alias); 9 Apr 2001 16:16:01 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-ibis-users@eda.org@fixme Received: (qmail 89385 invoked by uid 0); 9 Apr 2001 16:16:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO vasthorizons.com) (63.225.95.1) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 9 Apr 2001 16:16:01 -0000 Message-ID: <3AD1E041.88040233@vasthorizons.com> Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 09:16:01 -0700 From: Scott McMorrow Organization: SiQual X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Leung CC: "ibis-users@eda.org" Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver References: <3AD1B598.C7F5B835@cid.alcatel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2351 Jason, If the ibis model has been extracted correctly, then the Ramp data will tell you what the saturated output impedance is. The IBIS V/I curves give you the impedance of an output buffer at any voltage. I usually use 1 volts as a good place to measure impedance, since it is in the linear portion of the buffer curve. For the pullup and pulldown curve, go to the 1V row and read off the current. Since R=V/I, the output channel resistance can be calculated. For example, if at 1 Volt the current is 35mA, then the output impedance is 28.57 ohms. regards, scott -- Scott McMorrow Principal Engineer SiQual, Signal Quality Engineering 18735 SW Boones Ferry Road Tualatin, OR 97062-3090 (503) 885-1231 http://www.siqual.com Jason Leung wrote: > Hi all: > Morning! > I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can > match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. > The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate > the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their > rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output > impedance in XNS. > My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a > driver? AND how did you achieve that? > > Thanks very much for your comment! > Jason leung From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 13:14:27 2001 Received: from easystreet01.easystreet.com (easystreet.com [206.26.36.40]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f39KEO508877 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 13:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by easystreet01.easystreet.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f39KDt608587; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 13:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.eda.org (server.eda.ORG [171.64.101.101]) by easystreet01.easystreet.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f39IAND29556 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 11:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.wv.mentorg.com (relay1.mentorg.com [192.94.38.42]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f39Gmh507934 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com by relay1.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40F) id JAA10366; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2N9S0N1Q>; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:48:09 -0700 Message-ID: <2179BC5B6583D311B44700508B4414690468D19C@svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com> From: "Dagostino, Tom" To: "'Jason Leung'" , Scott McMorrow Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: output impedance of a driver Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:48:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2466 If you do both you will find there is usually a difference in pullup and pulldown impedance. Makes the design job more interesting. What trade-off are you going to make? Tom Dagostino IBIS and Tau Modeling Manager SDD Mentor Graphics Corp. 503-685-1613 tom_dagostino@mentor.com -----Original Message----- From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 9:41 AM To: Scott McMorrow Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver Hi Scott McMorrow : Thanks very much for your advice! So if we wanted to find the output impedance for the driver ,we just have to go to 1V row and then read off the corresponding current value eh? Should I do that on the Pull up curve or the pull down curve? thanks Regards Jason Leung > Jason, > > If the ibis model has been extracted correctly, then the Ramp data > will tell you what the saturated output impedance is. > > The IBIS V/I curves give you the impedance of an output buffer > at any voltage. I usually use 1 volts as a good place to measure > impedance, since it is in the linear portion of the buffer curve. > For the pullup and pulldown curve, go to the 1V row and read > off the current. Since R=V/I, the output channel resistance can > be calculated. > > For example, if at 1 Volt the current is 35mA, then the > output impedance is 28.57 ohms. > > regards, > > scott > > -- > Scott McMorrow > Principal Engineer > SiQual, Signal Quality Engineering > 18735 SW Boones Ferry Road > Tualatin, OR 97062-3090 > (503) 885-1231 > http://www.siqual.com > > Jason Leung wrote: > > > Hi all: > > Morning! > > I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can > > match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. > > The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate > > the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their > > rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output > > impedance in XNS. > > My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a > > driver? AND how did you achieve that? > > > > Thanks very much for your comment! > > Jason leung From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 14:11:44 2001 Received: from mako.hhnetwk.com ([65.198.127.146]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f39LBg509088 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 14:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from westerhoff (IDENT:root@ssh2.hhnetwk.com [192.168.0.2]) by mako.hhnetwk.com (8.11.0/bg-001114) with SMTP id f39LAYW08636 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 17:10:34 -0400 From: "Todd Westerhoff" To: Subject: RE: output impedance of a driver Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 17:11:14 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 In-Reply-To: Jason, I prefer to measure (delta V)/(delta I) from the linear portion of the transistor curves. I just eyeball the curves and pick points from the largest portion of the curve I can perceive as "linear" (squinting is optional). There are potential pitfalls as Chris points out, but for common application the technique seems to work just fine. It's just a starting point anyway, as you should use simulation to test your assumptions. As others have pointed out, be sure the check the slopes for both the pullup and pulldown devices, as you need to balance the needs of both edges. Should you find yourself dealing with one transistor significantly stronger than the other, parallel termination to either power or ground may be in order, as was discussed last week. Todd. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Rokusek [mailto:crokusek@innoveda.com] Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 3:17 PM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: output impedance of a driver Jason, The curves shown in the VI viewer are identical (in most cases) to the tables in the IBIS file. You can use the output XTK file directly just as you did with the IBIS file using the following mapping. IBIS XTK ------ ------- Pullup High Pulldown Low POWER_Clamp Shunt GND_Clamp Shunt_Neg However... It is somewhat dangerous to provide only a single static impedance value as others have pointed out due to the large variance over the typical operating range, current state, process variation, and dynamic switching nature. But if you are trying to perform a first-order approximation then you must first decide which voltage range(s) and which state(s) is of the most importance to your application because Z will vary with both state and voltage range. In some sense you should ask your colleague what he will use the Z value for because that will determine which Z value you give him. For instance if he wants to know what voltage will propagate down the TLine during the initial rising edge then you might approximate the Z by connecting two points on the HIGH VI curve in the middle of the operating range. This is poor approximation for at least three reasons: 1) The VI curve may be non-linear, 2) The transition from off to on may be non-linear, 3) The opposing state (LOW) may still be driving simultaneously and turns off non-linearly. Another example is that your colleague may want to use the driver Z to insure that reflections are absorbed. In this case you would need to figure out in which voltage range/state the reflections will occur. If they occur above/below the operating range of the device then the shunt curves (diodes) will come into play... Another methodology would be to create a linear driver (one with VI curves of constant slope) and that is tweaked until its response matches the response of the driver you are trying to approximate. My advice is to instead of providing an impedance, give him waveforms that cover all of the driving/loading cases (TLine/Receivers/Terminators/Process) you are expecting to see. Good luck, Chris Rokusek Innoveda > -----Original Message----- > From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 11:17 AM > To: Muranyi, Arpad > Cc: ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver > > > Hi Muranyi, Arpad: > Thanks for your advice! > one more question I would like to ask you: because I have been asked from > my colleague to use > XTK/XNS to find the output impedance of the driver, I know that in the > spawn -> VI viewer , > we can import the corresponding .wvi curve to observe the waveform. > Among all those waveform, you can just pick on one waveform, and then do a > > delta x and delta y function, then you will be able to find the impedance. > > However, there are so many curves I have to choose(shunt and high, shunt > and low and many > many more) , do u know which one I have to choose for an accurate > approximation of the > output impedance of the driver . > The whole point here is , since I know I can find the output impedance of > the driver in the IBIS model > I also wanted to try and find the output impedance of the driver in the > XNS (QUAD) model ,so that > I am able to compare what we have before the simulation and after the > simulation( i.e. how the XTK/XNS > interpret the output impedance of that driver ). > > thanks alot > Jason Leung > > > > Jason, > > > > The DC impedance can be found by dividing V/I on the IV curve of > > the buffer. You will find that you get a different value at > > practically any of the voltages due to the non linear shape of > > the IV curve. Plus, the process variation of a chip can give > > you a variation on the order of 2-3x. So finding the impedance > > and matching the T-line to it is like shooting at a moving target. > > > > The reason I said DC impedance above is because the capacitive > > components of the buffer will also alter the impedance of the > > buffer a higher frequencies. > > > > Arpad Muranyi > > Intel Corporation > > ================================================================ > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] > > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 6:14 AM > > To: ibis-users@eda.org > > Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver > > > > Hi all: > > Morning! > > I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can > > match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. > > The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate > > the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their > > rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output > > impedance in XNS. > > My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a > > driver? AND how did you achieve that? > > > > Thanks very much for your comment! > > Jason leung > From owner-ibis Tue Apr 10 06:53:09 2001 Received: from kend-linux.xanoptix.com (host-64-65-199-187.choiceone.net [64.65.199.187]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3ADr6513637 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 06:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xanoptix.com (cburton@tower.xanoptix.com [10.20.1.211]) by kend-linux.xanoptix.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3ADqaW25165; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:52:36 -0400 Sender: cburton@kend-linux.xanoptix.com Message-ID: <3AD31022.A15BFA8E@xanoptix.com> Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:52:34 -0400 From: Chris Burton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; HP-UX B.11.00 9000/785) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: built in termination Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This might be a simple question, but I couldn't find it in any of the documentation... Can IBIS model an input with a build in termination? I created a model with the termination in the spice simulation (for s2ibis). The ibischk3 didn't report any problems with it. But when I simulated it in Hspice, first Hspice complained that the current wasn't 0 at gnd (for gnd clamp) and 0 at vdd (for power clamp). The resultant waveforms were the correct shape but offset from the proper voltage (I ran the transistor version of the input in the same circuit for comparison). I then removed the termination and recreated the ibis model. I resimulated with an external termination in Hspice (but connected directly to the input node) and everything matched fine. -- Chris Burton Cad Support 603-546-0617 chris.burton@xanoptix.com From owner-ibis Tue Apr 10 08:00:01 2001 Received: from ausxc08.us.dell.com ([143.166.99.216]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3AExs513965 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ausxc08.us.dell.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <2FJKXJCH>; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:51:40 -0500 Message-ID: From: Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com To: chris.burton@xanoptix.com, ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: built in termination Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:51:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01C0C1CD.BD032410" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0C1CD.BD032410 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Chris, This sounds like an HSpice problem. Many of the models I use have pull-up terminators modeled in the power clamp. I see no reason why one couldn't model a termination to ground in the ground clamp. Aubrey Sparkman Signal Integrity Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com (512) 723-3592 > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Burton [mailto:chris.burton@xanoptix.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 8:53 AM > To: ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: built in termination > > > > This might be a simple question, but I couldn't find it in any of the > documentation... > > Can IBIS model an input with a build in termination? > > I created a model with the termination in the spice simulation (for > s2ibis). The ibischk3 didn't report any problems with it. But when I > simulated it in Hspice, first Hspice complained that the > current wasn't > 0 at gnd (for gnd clamp) and 0 at vdd (for power clamp). The > resultant > waveforms were the correct shape but offset from the proper voltage (I > ran the transistor version of the input in the same circuit for > comparison). > > I then removed the termination and recreated the ibis model. I > resimulated with an external termination in Hspice (but connected > directly to the input node) and everything matched fine. > > > -- > Chris Burton Cad Support > 603-546-0617 chris.burton@xanoptix.com > ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0C1CD.BD032410 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Sparkman, Aubrey.vcf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Sparkman, Aubrey.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Sparkman;Aubrey FN:Sparkman, Aubrey EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com REV:19990728T212924Z END:VCARD ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0C1CD.BD032410-- From owner-ibis Tue Apr 10 09:54:13 2001 Received: from ganymede.or.intel.com (jffdns01.or.intel.com [134.134.248.3]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3AGs4514406 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SMTP (orsmsxvs02-1.jf.intel.com [192.168.65.201]) by ganymede.or.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.35 2001/02/12 09:03:45 smothers Exp $) with SMTP id QAA24160 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:53:35 GMT Received: from orsmsx29.jf.intel.com ([192.168.70.29]) by 192.168.70.201 (Norton AntiVirus for Internet Email Gateways 1.0) ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:53:35 0000 (GMT) Received: by orsmsx29.jf.intel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2TTCRKXT>; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:53:34 -0700 Message-ID: <10C8636AE359D4119118009027AE9987051553B5@FMSMSX34> From: "Muranyi, Arpad" To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: built in termination Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:53:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Chris, We do this all the time without any problems in the waveforms (with the B-element). From your description, it sounds like your clamp waveforms are not correct. Even if you have on die terminations, the clamp curves should go through the origin. For example, if you have a termination that is connected to GND, your GND_clamp IV curve will look similar to a pulldown IV curve. In this case the Power_clamp IV curve should look like a normal diode curve having about zero current between GND and Vcc. If you have a terminator to Vcc, the mirror of the previous description should be true. Notice that the IV curve have zero current at the origin in both cases. If your curves don't look like this, than your buffer has either some fancy features (other than a normal terminator) or the IBIS model was not generated correctly. Keep in mind that it is very easy to double count for the terminator in these IV curves, and some numerical massaging of the data may be necessary to get it right. I do have a few foils on this issue in my IBIS class presentation which you can get from http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis.htm under Articles/Training/IBIS_class_JEDEC.ZIP, in the PDF file, pages 78-81. Arpad Muranyi Intel Corporation ========================================================== -----Original Message----- From: Chris Burton [mailto:chris.burton@xanoptix.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 6:53 AM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: built in termination This might be a simple question, but I couldn't find it in any of the documentation... Can IBIS model an input with a build in termination? I created a model with the termination in the spice simulation (for s2ibis). The ibischk3 didn't report any problems with it. But when I simulated it in Hspice, first Hspice complained that the current wasn't 0 at gnd (for gnd clamp) and 0 at vdd (for power clamp). The resultant waveforms were the correct shape but offset from the proper voltage (I ran the transistor version of the input in the same circuit for comparison). I then removed the termination and recreated the ibis model. I resimulated with an external termination in Hspice (but connected directly to the input node) and everything matched fine. -- Chris Burton Cad Support 603-546-0617 chris.burton@xanoptix.com From owner-ibis Tue Apr 10 11:14:56 2001 Received: from ns02.newbridge.com (ns02.newbridge.com [192.75.23.75]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f3AIEf514790 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9753 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2001 18:12:28 -0000 Received: from portal1.newbridge.com (HELO kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com) (192.75.23.76) by ns02.newbridge.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2001 18:12:28 -0000 Received: from kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com by kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com with ESMTP for ibis-users@eda.org; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:09:42 -0400 Received: from cid.alcatel.com ([138.120.105.38]) by kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA679; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:09:41 -0400 Message-Id: <3AD34C65.49C596E@cid.alcatel.com> Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:09:42 -0400 From: "Jason Leung" Organization: Alcatel CID X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Mayer , ibis-users@eda.org CC: Jason Leung , Mamadou Kane , Perry Qu , DORIN OPREA Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A75F36A3E5720B0FD4EF9C86" --------------A75F36A3E5720B0FD4EF9C86 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Michael: Thanks for showing me the way to find the output impedance!! It really helps me. Now, I would like to show you some interesting results: Right now I am working on LVT162244 from TI and I am trying to measure the output impedance of the driver .I have used the method you show me to do (i.e. -motive and I am able to get the output impedance for the high state which is 36.5 ohms and output impedance for the low state which is 29.81 ohms) . The schematic that I have used for testing is : [Image] where I have got a driver ->tline of 0.01 inch 60 ohms , series resistance ->tline of 10 inch 60 ohms-> and receiver. Since I wanted to compare the real value for the output impedance of the driver , I have tried different values for the series termination. The calculations are like these: I assumed the output impedance of the driver is in high state , so RH=36.5 , in order to match that with the tline, I have to use 23.5 ohms for the series termination, and I do the same thing by assuming the output impedance of the driver is in low state, then the series termination is 30.19 ohms . The third case is (RH+RL)/2 =33.2 so the series termination 60-33.2 =26.8 ohms.the last case is when the series termination is 60 ohms and you can see from the output waveform : [Image] here we see that the red curve is with series termination of 23.5 ohms , and the one below the red curve is when series termination of 26.8 ohms and the third one is when series termination of 30.15 ohms and finally series termination of 60 ohms. This is interesting to us because at the red curve where series termination is 23.5 ohms the rising edge is ok , but the falling edge is not ok . When the series termination is 26.845 ohms , the rising edge is not ok , but the falling edge is ok. Also when the series termination is 30.19 ohms , the rising edge is not ok , but the falling edge is ok.Finally for the series termination is 60 ohms , the rising edge is not ok , but the falling edge is not ok. My question is how do we determine the output impedance for the driver in this case, whether we should use RH , RL or (RH+RL)/2 . ??? Please feel free to comment. Thanks Jason Leung Michael Mayer wrote: > You can use ibis2xtk. One of the options generates a BLAST (formerly MOTIVE) > model. This is a simple linear model that includes the high and low > impedance. Try ibis2xtk -motive > > It will generate a .src file. At the bottom of the file will be a DEFDRIVER > statement for each buffer. RL and RH are the low and high impedances. > > ======================================================================= > Mike Mayer mmayer@innoveda.com > Applications Engineer Office: (608)523-1960 > Innoveda, Inc Mobile: (608)575-2732 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 8:14 AM > To: ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver > > Hi all: > Morning! > I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can > match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. > The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate > the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their > rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output > impedance in XNS. > My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a > driver? AND how did you achieve that? > > Thanks very much for your comment! > Jason leung --------------A75F36A3E5720B0FD4EF9C86 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------463A76A7F4ED4C4B9DA69617" --------------463A76A7F4ED4C4B9DA69617 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Michael:
Thanks for showing me the way to find the output impedance!! It really helps me.
Now, I would like to show you some interesting results:
Right now I am working on LVT162244 from TI and I am trying to measure the output impedance of the driver .I have used the method you show me to do (i.e. -motive and I am able to get the output impedance for the high state which is 36.5 ohms and output impedance for the low
state which is 29.81 ohms) .
The schematic  that I have used for testing is :
 

where I have got a driver ->tline of 0.01 inch 60 ohms , series resistance ->tline of 10 inch 60 ohms-> and receiver.

Since I wanted to compare the real value for the  output impedance of the driver , I have tried different values for the series termination.
The calculations are like these: I assumed  the output impedance of the driver is in high state , so RH=36.5 , in order to match that with the tline,
I have to use 23.5 ohms for the series termination, and I do the same thing by assuming the output impedance of the driver is in low state, then
the series termination is 30.19 ohms . The third case is (RH+RL)/2 =33.2 so the series termination 60-33.2 =26.8 ohms.the last case is when the series termination is 60 ohms

and you can see from the output waveform :


 

here we see that the red curve is with series termination of 23.5 ohms , and the one below the red curve is when series termination of 26.8 ohms
and the third one is when  series termination of 30.15 ohms and finally series termination of 60 ohms.
This is interesting to us because at the red curve where series termination is  23.5 ohms the rising edge is ok , but the falling edge is not ok .
When the series termination is 26.845 ohms , the  rising edge is not ok , but the falling edge is  ok. Also when the series termination is 30.19 ohms , the  rising edge is not ok , but the falling edge is  ok.Finally for the series termination is 60 ohms , the  rising edge is not ok , but the falling edge is  not ok.
My question is how do we determine the output impedance for the driver in this case, whether we should use RH , RL or (RH+RL)/2 . ???
Please feel free to comment.
Thanks
Jason Leung


 
 

Michael Mayer wrote:

You can use ibis2xtk. One of the options generates a BLAST (formerly MOTIVE)
model. This is a simple linear model that includes the high and low
impedance. Try ibis2xtk -motive

It will generate a .src file. At the bottom of the file will be a DEFDRIVER
statement for each buffer. RL and RH are the low and high impedances.

=======================================================================
Mike Mayer                                          mmayer@innoveda.com
Applications Engineer                             Office: (608)523-1960
Innoveda, Inc                                     Mobile: (608)575-2732

-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com]
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 8:14 AM
To: ibis-users@eda.org
Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver

Hi all:
Morning!
I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can
match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination.
The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate
the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their
rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output
impedance in XNS.
My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a
driver? AND how did you achieve that?

Thanks very much for your comment!
Jason leung

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